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+--- Thread: ANOTHER SCHOOL/PUBLIC SHOOTING (/thread-10743.html)
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RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - BigMark - 11-06-2017
That town is devastated.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - sally - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 07:47 PM)Jimbone Wrote:(11-06-2017, 06:32 PM)sally Wrote: Whether he lied on his application or not he was still allowed to legally purchase guns. Obviously there is no database to show he spent a year in military prison and physically assaulted a woman and child or it was just ignored.
Except when you lie on the application you are breaking the law. His purchase was completed, but it wasn't a legal purchase since he provided untruthful information, as criminals tend to do.
And there's a preliminary report that the Air Force neglected to enter his convictions into the NICS database as they were supposed to.
The dealer has nothing to do with you getting permission from NICS to complete a transaction BTW. They take the information from the form you fill out, and provide it during the NICS check. The agent on the other end says yes or no, and that's where the transaction proceeds or stops.
And the NICS database is only as good as the info provided to it. If the Air Force fucked up, it's on them. Just like the PD that didn't enter Dylan Roof's drug arrest, which would have flagged him from purchasing when he did.
The only perfect system will be the no-more-gun-confiscate-existing system, and that's not likely to happen
Him lying on the application is not the point, obviously criminals will lie on their applications. So what's the solution? Well having stricter background checks would help, I'm sure if he was applying for citizenship they'd find out right away he had criminal charges against him. Obtaining guns needs to be as hard as obtaining a citizenship as far as background checks and those that fail to provide the information whether it be the PD, the NICS or the military should be held accountable.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - sally - 11-06-2017
You can find out anything about anyone on the internet, you're telling me it's too hard to find out about this idiot? What about the Las Vegas shooter that bought multiple weapons within a month, no track of that? No red flags? Bullshit there aren't any laws that could be made to at least help prevent some of it slipping by.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - Duchess - 11-07-2017
(11-06-2017, 09:33 PM)sally Wrote: you're telling me it's too hard to find out about this idiot
Some will tell you that the only solution is for more people to have guns.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - Duchess - 11-07-2017
(11-06-2017, 04:32 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: This just in: The gunman who opened fire inside a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, has been identified as Devin Kelley, an Antifa member who vowed to start a civil war by “targeting white conservative churches” and causing anarchy in the United States.
I'm seeing that ^^^^^^^ referred to as fake news. Apparently it started on Facebook and has been flagged as fabricated.
I'm only going by what I have read this morning. I haven't taken the time to fact check.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - Blindgreed1 - 11-07-2017
(11-07-2017, 06:32 AM)Duchess Wrote:I checked it yesterday. It's fake news. It was sent to me by someone who is usually trustworthy, but he has since retracted.(11-06-2017, 04:32 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: This just in: The gunman who opened fire inside a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, has been identified as Devin Kelley, an Antifa member who vowed to start a civil war by “targeting white conservative churches” and causing anarchy in the United States.
I'm seeing that ^^^^^^^ referred to as fake news. Apparently it started on Facebook and has been flagged as fabricated.
I'm only going by what I have read this morning. I haven't taken the time to fact check.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - HairOfTheDog - 11-07-2017
(11-06-2017, 07:47 PM)Jimbone Wrote: Except when you lie on the application you are breaking the law. His purchase was completed, but it wasn't a legal purchase since he provided untruthful information, as criminals tend to do.
And there's a preliminary report that the Air Force neglected to enter his convictions into the NICS database as they were supposed to.
The Air Force fucked up and I sincerely hope the investigation into how it happened is thorough and honest.
The investigation should not only be focused on how this guy, the poster boy for red flags, was able to purchase firearms four times through legal channels after being discharged. It should be solution-oriented and focus on how many other veterans with disqualifying military convictions are unflagged as well. I seriously doubt only one such case exists. It's more likely systematic, in my opinion. They should all be reported to NICS immediately.
I'd like to see filling the breaks in the 'enforcement of existing laws' go further. Everyone who tries to purchase a firearm through legal channels and is rejected should be investigated.
If they lied on the application, charge and prosecute -- cut 'em off before they steal a gun, purchase one through an unlicensed dealer at a gun show or through a private transaction (the fact that there is STILL no universal background check is fucking ridiculous.)
If they're already illegally in possession of other firearms, charge and prosecute for that too.
If there's evidence of mental health problems, mandate and provide treatment resources.
Anyone who claims that there's nothing that can be done because it's a mental health issue and not a gun issue, or that we don't need more controls we just need to enforce existing laws, should have no problem with such stricter enforcement and treatment mandates.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - HairOfTheDog - 11-07-2017
(11-06-2017, 07:47 PM)Jimbone Wrote: The dealer has nothing to do with you getting permission from NICS to complete a transaction BTW. They take the information from the form you fill out, and provide it during the NICS check. The agent on the other end says yes or no, and that's where the transaction proceeds or stops.
Yes, in this case, the gun dealer appears to have followed all requirements -- it's not his or her fault for legally selling a gun to an illegal buyer.
(11-06-2017, 07:47 PM)Jimbone Wrote: And the NICS database is only as good as the info provided to it. If the Air Force fucked up, it's on them. Just like the PD that didn't enter Dylan Roof's drug arrest, which would have flagged him from purchasing when he did.
It wasn't the PD who fucked up and put the legally-sold gun into the illegal purchaser's hands so he could go shoot-to-death 9 innocent people at the Baptist church in Carolina. It was the Feds again. Because of the federal law that gives the FBI only three days to vet an applicant, Dylann Roof was able to buy the firearm. The FBI didn't vet him in time, so the dealer was able to legally sell him the gun when Roof went back to the dealer on day 4 (even though he didn't pass the background check).
The waiting period needs to be extended beyond three days on a national level, in my opinion. 30 days sounds reasonable to me.
(11-06-2017, 07:47 PM)Jimbone Wrote: The only perfect system will be the no-more-gun-confiscate-existing system, and that's not likely to happen
There is no perfect system and I don't think anyone here is suggesting there is.
But, we can do a whole better and there are definitely measures which can be taken to make it happen. There is a way, there just isn't a will by some legislators who are beholden to the NRA, the gun lobby, and some loud constituents who immediately scream "they're gonna take all our guns away" whenever reasonable control improvements are broached.
I think sally's right about too many of the people who have the power to make a positive difference not giving a shit about the consequences of their self-serving bullshit. And, I think Cars is right too -- the majority of the public is beyond justified in being pissed off about lack of action from a whole party of elected officials. It can make a difference if concerned citizens continue to push loudly and constantly for action. We also need to show up and vote in Congressional elections.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - HairOfTheDog - 11-07-2017
President Trump and his spokespersons sound like fools, in my opinion. It's not disrespectful or inappropriate to talk about improvement-oriented gun controls just after a shooting massacre. Just the opposite.
And, Trump's statement yesterday about how more gun control would have led to hundreds of deaths instead of 26 deaths at the Texas church is idiotic. Unless our president is telling the world that the armed good samaritan who interrupted Kelley's slaughter is also a criminal or mentally ill and Trump somehow knows that Kelley had other mass targets, Trump's just being a loyal mouthpiece for the NRA and gun lobby who helped get him elected.
Prayers for the dead and surviving victims are fine after such a tragedy, but they're not solution-oriented and they do nothing to help minimize the number of future such tragedies.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - Jimbone - 11-07-2017
(11-07-2017, 11:06 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: It wasn't the PD who fucked up and put the legally-sold gun into the illegal purchaser's hands so he could go shoot-to-death 9 innocent people at the Baptist church in Carolina. It was the Feds again. Because of the federal law that gives the FBI only three days to vet an applicant, Dylann Roof was able to buy the firearm. The FBI didn't vet him in time, so the dealer was able to legally sell him the gun when Roof went back to the dealer on day 4 (even though he didn't pass the background check).
The waiting period needs to be extended beyond three days on a national level, in my opinion. 30 days sounds reasonable to me.
We're both right, because local law enforcement did screw up which caused the FBI to miss the cut off. A clerical error occurred when his felony arrest was entered in the database. The wrong arresting agency was listed by the jail, so when the FBI called to inquire about the felony, they called the arresting agency listed (who of course had no record of the arrest). The additional delay caused the waiting period to expire.
The FBI further screwed up though. They could have referred the error to the ATF who could have moved to remove the gun from the purchaser.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - HairOfTheDog - 11-07-2017
Yeah, I'm aware of the problem with the PD record.
But, it was the FBI's job to approve or disapprove Roof's application for gun purchase. That's a very important responsibility which should be taken seriously. The buck stopped there.
There will always be some clerical errors in databases. The FBI processor knew there was a problem with Roof's criminal history record and requested more information. Instead of notifying the dealer and delaying the purchase until Roof could be properly vetted, the FBI processor just let the waiting period expire and the dealer was thus able to legally put the gun in Roof's hands.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - HairOfTheDog - 11-07-2017
Sorry Jimbone.
I just did some research and realize that Roof's application probably was in "Delayed" status in NICS when the dealer chose to transfer the gun to Roof without a completed background check.
Comey's later statement didn't indicate that the agent had entered "Delayed" status, but after reviewing the NICS process, she may well have.
Sadly, under the 3-day waiting period stipulation of the Brady Act, the FBI can't stop a dealer from choosing to legally transfer the gun if the FBI is not able to complete the background check within 3 business days.
Some dealers choose not to transfer the gun unless they get an "approval" notification, however many smaller ones transfer the gun after three business days even if they know the FBI investigation is still pending. That's called the "default proceed" provision, which needs to be eliminated (or at the very least extended to 30 days) in my opinion.
This is a good overview and flowchart for anyone who's interested in how the process works and recent statistics regarding the number of gun transactions legally authorized under the "default proceed" provision/loophole. https://thinkprogress.org/exclusive-the-fbi-allowed-over-300-000-gun-purchases-last-year-before-completing-a-background-9d380d53aa1d/
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - HairOfTheDog - 11-07-2017
(11-06-2017, 09:33 PM)sally Wrote: You can find out anything about anyone on the internet, you're telling me it's too hard to find out about this idiot? What about the Las Vegas shooter that bought multiple weapons within a month, no track of that? No red flags? Bullshit there aren't any laws that could be made to at least help prevent some of it slipping by.
It's unbelievable. So many people in authority knew the Texas church mass shooter, Kelley, was a ticking time-bomb for years and it's all documented.
1. Confessed to assaulting his wife and fracturing the skull of her infant son.
2. Charged with animal abuse after violently beating his dog in front of four witnesses.
3. Threatened to kill military officials and tried to smuggle firearms onto a military facility.
4. Escaped from a mental facility where he'd been deemed a threat to himself and others.
5. Court-martialled and discharged from the Air Force for bad behavior.
And yet, he purchased firearms on four separate occasions after all of that.
It becomes more obvious with each mass shooting -- many carried out using guns that were legally sold to people who clearly never should have had access to firearms and high capacity magazines -- that the U.S. needs much tighter gun control laws and enforcement. The current system is a national disgrace.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - Duchess - 11-07-2017
(11-07-2017, 09:06 AM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: I checked it yesterday. It's fake news. It was sent to me by someone who is usually trustworthy, but he has since retracted.
I just saw it said that the story was shared 264,000 times on Facebook. 264,000 times. Why in the world would the average person believe Facebook "news"? This is a problem.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - HairOfTheDog - 11-07-2017
(11-07-2017, 06:00 PM)Duchess Wrote: I just saw it said that the story was shared 264,000 times on Facebook. 264,000 times. Why in the world would the average person believe Facebook "news"? This is a problem.
So many Americans are uninformed and gullible these days. Too many specifically seek out claims that conform to their own biases and never bother to check the facts or credibility. Then, they send or post the baseless bullshit.....which more people read, swallow, and regurgitate.
I saw the Antifa bullshit (along with a lot of other baseless politically-motivated claims) in the reader comments sections of news articles as soon as Kelley was identified. I never saw or heard it claimed within any credible or sourced media content though.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - Duchess - 11-07-2017
(11-07-2017, 06:37 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: So many Americans are uninformed and gullible these days. Too many specifically seek out claims that conform to their own biases and never bother to check the facts or credibility.
I've encountered some of those people. Facts are meaningless to them. Even when presented with evidence they deem it fake and sincerely believe there is not one iota of truth to it. Their willful ignorance is astounding at times and other times it's very frustrating.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - Blindgreed1 - 11-08-2017
(11-07-2017, 06:37 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:The guy that sent it to me got it from South jersey or NJ.com. Normally a reputable site for sports news at least. Apparently not so reputable for politics. They've since taken it down.(11-07-2017, 06:00 PM)Duchess Wrote: I just saw it said that the story was shared 264,000 times on Facebook. 264,000 times. Why in the world would the average person believe Facebook "news"? This is a problem.
So many Americans are uninformed and gullible these days. Too many specifically seek out claims that conform to their own biases and never bother to check the facts or credibility. Then, they send or post the baseless bullshit.....which more people read, swallow, and regurgitate.
I saw the Antifa bullshit (along with a lot of other baseless politically-motivated claims) in the reader comments sections of news articles as soon as Kelley was identified. I never saw or heard it claimed within any credible or sourced media content though.
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - HairOfTheDog - 11-08-2017
(11-08-2017, 11:02 AM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: The guy that sent it to me got it from South jersey or NJ.com. Normally a reputable site for sports news at least. Apparently not so reputable for politics. They've since taken it down.
Thanks Gunnar; not a problem.
I'd seen those Antifa claims in reader comments on news sites early on, and those kinds of politically-motivated false claims have sadly become par for the course in any tragedy these days. I wasn't responding specifically to your post which you cleared up.
The conspiracy theories start almost as soon as the news of a tragedy breaks. Already, for example, there is a lot of illegitimate 'news' claiming the Texas church massacre is a hoax perpetrated by the Left, the victims are crisis actors, etc... Same shit Alex Jones and other loonies have been saying about the Sandy Hook massacre for years.
Sadly, those kinds of baseless conspiracy theories have resulted in victims who lost their little kids being subject to death threats and harassment by people who believe Jones, Facebook, and other fake news distributors.
Google and Yahoo both helped spread the Antifa lie too. This was an interesting read about how that happens: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/06/google-youtube-texas-shooting-fake-news
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - Blindgreed1 - 11-08-2017
(11-08-2017, 11:18 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:Isn't The Guardian a right wing thing? Anyway, false flags are real IMO, I am just not of the opinion that they are as common as conspiracy theorists claim.(11-08-2017, 11:02 AM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: The guy that sent it to me got it from South jersey or NJ.com. Normally a reputable site for sports news at least. Apparently not so reputable for politics. They've since taken it down.
Thanks Gunnar; not a problem.
I'd seen those Antifa claims in reader comments on news sites early on, and those kinds of politically-motivated false claims have sadly become par for the course in any tragedy these days. I wasn't responding specifically to your post which you cleared up.
The conspiracy theories start almost as soon as the news of a tragedy breaks. Already, for example, there is a lot of illegitimate 'news' claiming the Texas church massacre is a hoax perpetrated by the Left, the victims are crisis actors, etc... Same shit Alex Jones and other loonies have been saying about the Sandy Hook massacre for years.
Sadly, those kinds of baseless conspiracy theories have resulted in victims who lost their little kids being subject to death threats and harassment by people who believe Jones, Facebook, and other fake news distributors.
Google and Yahoo both helped spread the Antifa lie too. This was an interesting read about how that happens: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/06/google-youtube-texas-shooting-fake-news
RE: ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING - HairOfTheDog - 11-08-2017
Most credible media sources lean right or left in their coverage. I read and listen to various media which include facts and sources regardless of which way they tend to lean.
Anyway, as noted in The Guardian piece.........the platforms involved have already acknowledged what's covered in the article and pledged to adjust the auto-complete search algorithm. You can read more about it at The Daily Beast, the Washington Post and other sources if you're interested.