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+--- Thread: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE (/thread-11616.html)
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Cutz - 12-07-2014
Yeah. It's up to us soccer moms to question LE actions. The procedural reviews, IA, and judicial hearings clearly aren't as qualified as those of us with the power of Fox News! How dare you question the absolute power of Mothers Against Corrupt Cops, Kid.
I mean, he had an evaluation one day that said he was crying! Cops aren't allowed to have feelings!
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-08-2014
I don't happen to be a soccer mom, Cutz. And, it's not up to me to question LE actions. I think what I want, question what I want, and do what I want (without hurting others) based on my interests. It's my right to do so. I'm joined in exercising that freedom of thought, expression and speech by a lot of soccer moms, LEOs, pundits, single men and women, etc...
You say, "cops have feelings and they're allowed to cry on the job too!!!" Well, alright, Cutz. That's you expressing your thoughts and exercising your free speech. No one's trying to suggest it's wrong for you to do so. It wouldn't bother me if you wanted to act on those feelings and give Officer Loehmann a nice big reassuring hug.
But, you're either intentionally minimizing the issue or you're unaware of the facts when you falsely characterize the question of Loehmann's qualifications. Officer Loehmann was noted as having an "emotional meltdown". He was also noted as having "a pattern of lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions," a "dangerous loss of composure during live range training" and an "inability to manage personal stress." Further, the Deputy Chief of Police for Independence, Ohio wrote: "I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies," in a November 2012 memo.
A "pattern" is not indicative of an isolated incident or "one day", Cutz. Loehmann's performance problems were noted in a review by a supervisor who was preparing to fire Loehmann when Loehmann instead quit. He was inactive from the time he quit in Nov 2012 until joining Cleveland PD in March of 2014, where he was hired without anyone knowing of his performance issues (according to Cleveland PD themselves).
Maybe Loehmann's previous performance and his lack of experience in the field will be determined not to have been a factor in the death of Tamir Rice, but you can bet your ass it's being investigated -- as it should be, IMO. Maybe the investigation or the grand jury will determine that his performance and lack of experience were contributing factors in the death of Tamir Rice. We'll see.
In either case, it's being commented upon by analysts and case followers of both sexes in many places, not just women in this crime forum. The bee in your bonnet here seems to stem more from women questioning a man or a police officer than anything else. That's okay -- chauvinists and women are equally free to post their opinions here.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Cutz - 12-08-2014
A police officer can be a woman just as easily a man, I'm not worried about the gender of the cop nor the accusers of her/his actions. I just greet sarcasm with sarcasm. If a female cop shot an advancing suspect who was drawing a weapon... I'd still think questioning her actions is bombastic, media-incited nonsense. If you want to paint Kid's position as believing no cops should be questioned... then you're about as serious as I was with the soccer moms wielding the power of Fox news comments.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-08-2014
(12-08-2014, 01:49 AM)Cutz Wrote: A police officer can be a woman just as easily a man, I'm not worried about the gender of the cop nor the accusers of her/his actions. I just greet sarcasm with sarcasm. If a female cop shot an advancing suspect who was drawing a weapon... I'd still think questioning her actions is bombastic, media-incited nonsense. If you want to paint Kid's position as believing no cops should be questioned... then you're about as serious as I was with the soccer moms wielding the power of Fox news comments.
I'll let Kid speak to me for himself, Cutz. We don't need an intermediary.
Kid implied upthread that people who haven't walked a mile in cops' shoes shouldn't talk. People can't question if they can't talk (or type, in the case of Mock). So, he and I have agreed to disagree. That's where we stand.
Just to be clear: those of us who haven't walked a mile in cops' shoes (including you and Kid, if you wish) but are interested in these types of cases or this case specifically are gonna go ahead and keeping talking; some will make judgments and form opinions in the process. People are free to do that here and others are free to label them irrational or bombastic for it.
If Kid wants to acknowledge and discuss things about this case specifically -- like the fact that the police officers or their reps lied about about the incident before park surveillance video was revealed/released, or the fact that several tactical experts agree that the close-up roll-up on Tamir was a tactical error, or the fact that the shooting officer has a history of poor performance, or anything else directly or indirectly related to the case -- I'd like to hear his take, as always.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-10-2014
UPDATES
DOJ Investigation of Cleveland PD -- Tie In to Tamir Rice Shooting?
Since the shooting, the US Department of Justice released the results of its year-long investigation of Cleveland PD. The results indicate that the Cleveland PD routinely uses brutality, is reckless in approach and response to reportedly armed suspects, and doesn't properly investigate and retain records associated with officer involved shootings.
This is the third effin' time the feds have had enough valid citizen complaints to investigate the Cleveland PD and push for process and training improvements over the last 10 years, but it doesn't appear previous reform commitments by Cleveland PD were kept after the heat died down.
This time, it's different. The DOJ and Cleveland have now committed to developing a consent decree. This time, it will include an independent monitor and be court-enforceable --'bout damned time. Ref: http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/08/opinion/cevallos-justice-department-cleveland-police/
The shooting of Tamir Rice is still under investigation; whether he was a victim of such ineptness on the part of Cleveland PD can't be known conclusively until all the facts are in, but local councilpersons and citizens are convinced that he was.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-10-2014
Tamir Rice's Mom Speaks Out
Samaria Rice did a couple of interviews earlier this week. She is Tamir's mom. Here's her recounting of Nov. 22nd, the day her son was shot.
-Samaria says that Tamir wasn't allowed to play with any types of guns; the pellet gun was from a friend.
-Tamir was at the park with his 14-year-old sister who'd gone into the adjacent youth/rec center while Tamir was playing.
-When Tamir was shot, his older sister ran outside and tried to help her brother who was just laying there in the grass without aid. She was tackled, handcuffed and placed in the cop car with Officer Loehmann, Tamir's shooter.
-In the meantime, two little boys ran to Tamir's house, which is only yards from the park, and told Samaria that Tamir had been shot twice by police.
-Samaria ran to the park -- she was there within minutes of the shooting. -Tamir was laying in the grass unattended and she was yelling and trying to get to him. Police would not let her through and told her to calm down or they would arrest her.
-She saw her daughter crying in the police car and asked them to let her out -- they would not.
-The ambulance arrived and Samaria was told she could ride in the front of the ambulance to the hospital with Tamir or stay and help her daughter. She went with Tamir to the hospital where he died several hours later.
I hope there is video to support the family's claim of what went down after the shooting. If it went down as they claim, it was a huge unwarranted slap in the face.
When asked what she wants by an interviewer, Samaria said she wants a conviction of both officers.
The family attorney, Benjamin Crump, is asking for charges to be filed immediately. There is no requirement for a grand jury indictment in order to file charges and he feels charges are warranted at this time.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Duchess - 12-10-2014
What a nightmare for that family. How awful for his Mom to see him like that and for his sister too.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Maggot - 12-10-2014
I might shoot the cops if they did that to me.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Duchess - 12-10-2014
I'd lose my shit, completely and loudly. I'd be a spectacle.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-12-2014
AUTOPSY RESULTS RELEASED
![[Image: 81399423_s.jpg]](http://static.genspot.com/vnc/images/links/5122014/81399423_s.jpg)
Cause of Death (COD): Homicide; Gunshot wound to the torso with "injuries of major vessel, intestines and pelvis."
The fatal gunshot entered the left side of the abdomen.
Tamir Rice was 12-years-old, 5'7" in height, and weighed 195 pounds.
Toxicology reports show no signs of illegal substances in the boy's system.
Tamir was shot at around 3:30 p.m. on Saturday, Nov. 23, 2014. He died several hours later after surgery and other treatments were attempted but failed.
Tamir Rice was declared dead at 12:53 a.m. on Sunday, Nov. 24, 2014.
Report: https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/3kqakweo7447ka8k/images/1-1c5f199921.jpg
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Maggot - 12-12-2014
He was a BIG 12 yr old!
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Midwest Spy - 12-12-2014
(12-12-2014, 01:55 PM)Maggot Wrote: He was a BIG 12 yr old!
5'7" and 195lbs.
I can understand why witnesses/911 caller didn't think he was just a kid.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-12-2014
Both of my younger sister's boys were 5'8" or 5'9" when they were 12, now both well over 6 ft. One of them weighed about the same as Tamir, and the other was about 30 pounds lighter. So, it doesn't seem that big to me.
But Tamir was reportedly a great athlete who played all of the school sports, and he was definitely bigger than the national average.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-12-2014
The 911 caller did think that Tamir was "probably just a juvenile", MS. That's what he told the 911 operator.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Midwest Spy - 12-12-2014
(12-12-2014, 02:03 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Both of my younger sister's boys were 5'8" or 5'9" when they were 12, now both well over 6 ft. One of them weighed about the same as Tamir, and the other was about 30 pounds lighter. So, it doesn't seem that big to me.
But Tamir was reportedly a great athlete who played all of the school sports, and he was definitely bigger than the national average.
Right now, I'm nearly 6'2 and weigh 225.
When I was 23 I was nearly 6'2" and weighed 185.
When I got to 6th grade I just tipped 100lbs on the scale. I was 140 in 8th grade and was probably around 5'8".
My point is, Tamir was VERY big for his age, just as maggot assessed.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Duchess - 12-12-2014
The person who called 911 didn't have a problem discerning that he was just a kid.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-12-2014
(12-12-2014, 02:35 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: My point is, Tamir was VERY big for his age, just as maggot assessed.
Yeah, like I said, he was definitely bigger than the national average.
It might really have been helpful if the 911 dispatcher had informed the responding officers that the eyewitness 911 caller believed Tamir to be a juvenile with a fake gun. That caller had seen more than just physical size -- he'd seen what he figured were probably the demeanor and actions of a kid.
Some kids are small for their ages. Some kids are big for their ages. Some kids are average-sized. In all cases, 12 years old = 12 years old.
No one questioned Maggot's assessment, even before you chimed in with your VERY helpful supporting post highlighting your physical stature at middle age.
Tamir Rice was a big kid -- that's a fact.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - username - 12-12-2014
(12-10-2014, 12:25 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I hope there is video to support the family's claim of what went down after the shooting. If it went down as they claim, it was a huge unwarranted slap in the face.
I'm quite certain there is. That surveillance tape that was running from across the street wouldn't have just stopped suddenly. We've only seen a portion of what they have and I'd like to see the whole damn thing. Besides tackling the daughter and threatening the mother, I want to see what both cops were so damn busy doing they couldn't be bothered to render first aid to that kid. Fuckers.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-12-2014
(12-12-2014, 03:10 PM)username Wrote:(12-10-2014, 12:25 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I hope there is video to support the family's claim of what went down after the shooting. If it went down as they claim, it was a huge unwarranted slap in the face.
I'm quite certain there is. That surveillance tape that was running from across the street wouldn't have just stopped suddenly. We've only seen a portion of what they have and I'd like to see the whole damn thing. Besides tackling the daughter and threatening the mother, I want to see what both cops were so damn busy doing they couldn't be bothered to render first aid to that kid. Fuckers.
Yeah, the surveillance camera that captured the shooting would surely have captured the immediate aftermath as well.
Fortunately, when the shooting went down, there was little obstruction at the scene and you can see the police car approaching, Tamir moving, and the shooting. It's grainy footage, but the view is clear.
After the shooting, there were people gathered at the scene -- I'm hoping the camera view wasn't too obstructed by the group/crowd to capture the essence of what happened with Tamir's sister, his mother, and Officers Loehmann and Garmback.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Midwest Spy - 12-12-2014
(12-12-2014, 03:02 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:(12-12-2014, 02:35 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: My point is, Tamir was VERY big for his age, just as maggot assessed.
Yeah, like I said, he was definitely bigger than the national average.
It might really have been helpful if the 911 dispatcher had informed the responding officers that the eyewitness 911 caller believed Tamir to be a juvenile with a fake gun. That caller had seen more than just physical size -- he'd seen what he figured were probably the demeanor and actions of a kid.
Some kids are small for their ages. Some kids are big for their ages. Some kids are average-sized. In all cases, 12 years old = 12 years old.
No one questioned Maggot's assessment, even before you chimed in with your VERY helpful supporting post highlighting your physical stature at middle age.
Tamir Rice was a big kid -- that's a fact.
So physical stature wouldn't play a part in a police officers split second decision-making?
I just looked it up. The average 12 year old boy in this country is 58" and weighs 90lbs.
You said "12 years old is 12 years old." while that's true, if Tamir appeared to be more like an older teen or even a young adult, that may explain why he was perceived as a legitimate threat, rather than just a child playing with a toy gun.