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+--- Thread: ABORTION (/thread-4801.html)
RE: ABORTION - HairOfTheDog - 08-23-2015
Someone who chooses to take the life of a pregnant woman is choosing to murder one person and the life or potential person she has developing inside of her. So, lawmakers have deemed that to be double murder. Not everyone agrees with that view/law, just like there's a lot of disagreement in regards to abortion views/laws.
Some people view all abortion and even morning-after pills as murder. They don't look at it scientifically, they look at emotionally and/or morally and/or according to religious indoctrination. They believe that a woman has a moral or religious responsibility to host and nurture cells and tissue until they develop into fetuses, which develop nervous systems and heartbeats, and late into pregnancy develop some capacity to feel pain, and eventually possibly develop rudimentary consciousness before being birthed. Or, they don't think about those things at all and look at the fetuses physical form and assign it the same attributes/rights as a born baby, by association. I understand all those views.
Other people, myself included, think the woman has the right to choose whether she wants to assume the responsibility of continued pregnancy/hosting and birthing; and abortion laws shouldn't be based on other people's morals, religion, or desire to punish women for unwanted pregnancies.
However, I'm okay with cutting off that right to choose at the point where the fetus is likely viable without the woman's body hosting it and providing nutrients, and I have no objection to changing the cut-off to the earliest point at which a fetus might be able to feel pain. Images of the physical form of the fetus can evoke emotion in me, but don't affect my thinking.
A lot of people (and some state lawmakers) believe that it's always the woman's right to terminate hosting the fetus, with no cut-off restrictions, since the fetus is not an autonomous person at that point. I understand that view too.
The law in this country and many other countries allows abortion, usually with some restrictions or cut-offs (which vary by country and by U.S. state).
The law in this country and in some states (with varying criteria) allows killing autonomous persons as a form of penalty (though it's unquestionably 'homicide'; which the law currently considers 'justifiable').
As always, people have varying views when it comes to matters of life and death and different laws can be contradictory in regards to those matters. But, views and laws can and do change -- so activists/lobbyists/politicians/citizens on both sides and somewhere in between continue to fight for what they think is right.
RE: ABORTION - username - 08-23-2015
(08-23-2015, 10:13 AM)pyropappy Wrote: If a pregnant women is murdered, the perp is charged with a double homicide; why is abortion not considered murder?
Well, currently different states have different laws regarding late term abortions and I couldn't find what the "penalties" were in any of those states if a woman chose to ignore the law and somehow abort her baby past, or outside of, the legal limits. I don't know what criminal charges she (or, if a Dr. provided the service) would face.
However, first, there's the point at which the fetus feels pain/or is potentially viable outside of the womb--that's what most states base their laws on--again, couldn't find info on penalties/possible criminal charges for violating those laws.
I also learned that 38 states have fetal homicide laws (according to one article I read). 23 of those states consider the murder of a pregnant woman a "double homicide" at any point in her pregnancy. Obviously, the others don't and the fetus has to have reached some "standard" before the mother's murder is considered a double homicide.
So the answer is...fuck if I know. J/K, I shouldn't try to be even remotely "deep" before having at least two cups of coffee. I will say this...currently, abortion is a woman's choice (Roe vs. Wade and all that) although the laws and time limits are changing. But here's a crude comparison for you...if I have a shiny, new iPad and I decide to toss it out my window and ultimately or otherwise get rid of it, that's my choice. If you come and steal my iPad, you're a thief and a criminal, right?
I should have just left it to the last couple of sentences without all the unhelpful jibberish prior.
Sheesh.
RE: ABORTION - Duchess - 08-23-2015
(08-23-2015, 01:15 PM)username Wrote: if I have a shiny, new iPad and I decide to toss it out my window and ultimately or otherwise get rid of it, that's my choice. If you come and steal my iPad, you're a thief and a criminal, right?
I like that analogy and I just might use it the next time I hear someone ask a question like Pappy's. Tis crude but effective.
RE: ABORTION - pyropappy - 08-23-2015
(08-23-2015, 01:21 PM)Duchess Wrote:(08-23-2015, 01:15 PM)username Wrote: if I have a shiny, new iPad and I decide to toss it out my window and ultimately or otherwise get rid of it, that's my choice. If you come and steal my iPad, you're a thief and a criminal, right?
I like that analogy and I just might use it the next time I hear someone ask a question like Pappy's. Tis crude but effective.
Ah, there is the rub; your iPad has no "life", the baby does at the moment of conception as human DNA is present. The "right to choose" was created by Roe v Wade; that right in fact does not exist. Actually the opposite is true; the baby has the right to life.
The 10 Commandments:
Thou shall not kill.
The first law of this country is the Declaration of Independence:
..."We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among those are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” ...
Clearly our founders were not addressing abortion, but they drew their inspiration from Gods law.
The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
So before every abortion the mother should be forced to go to court and show cause why she “chooses“ to kill that individual child.
This country needs to find its morality again; killing humans just for birth control is wrong.
RE: ABORTION - Duchess - 08-23-2015
(08-23-2015, 03:51 PM)pyropappy Wrote: killing humans just for birth control is wrong.
I don't think anyone in here has ever agreed with abortion being used as birth control.
RE: ABORTION - Midwest Spy - 08-23-2015
(08-23-2015, 04:22 PM)Duchess Wrote:(08-23-2015, 03:51 PM)pyropappy Wrote: killing humans just for birth control is wrong.
I don't think anyone in here has ever agreed with abortion being used as birth control.
I won't debate whether or not someone agrees with abortion, but I don't mind asking what pro-choice supporters think the main reason for aborting a fetus is?
I mean, if you had to break it down to percentages, do women have an abortion because: A) it's a form of birth control (I screwed that guy and I really am not ready for a baby), B) rape C) incest D) any other reason
I'm interested to know.
RE: ABORTION - Maggot - 08-23-2015
I will take "Just because" for 500.00 Alex.
RE: ABORTION - Duchess - 08-23-2015
(08-23-2015, 06:22 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: I mean, if you had to break it down to percentages, do women have an abortion because: A) it's a form of birth control (I screwed that guy and I really am not ready for a baby), B) rape C) incest D) any other reason
I'm interested to know.
It's so odd to me that most men never think that birth control has failed. It can & it has. Sally's last pregnancy would be a great example.
Men should be using a form of birth control as well if they don't want an unwanted pregnancy hanging over their heads. They should never take it for granted that the woman has protected against it.
RE: ABORTION - Duchess - 08-23-2015
(08-23-2015, 06:47 PM)Maggot Wrote: I will take "Just because" for 500.00 Alex.
Your opinion is that women have an abortion on a whim?
RE: ABORTION - Maggot - 08-23-2015
(08-23-2015, 07:26 PM)Duchess Wrote:(08-23-2015, 06:47 PM)Maggot Wrote: I will take "Just because" for 500.00 Alex.
Your opinion is that women have an abortion on a whim?
No, but women have been known to change their mind just because.
RE: ABORTION - username - 08-23-2015
(08-23-2015, 03:51 PM)pyropappy Wrote:(08-23-2015, 01:21 PM)Duchess Wrote:(08-23-2015, 01:15 PM)username Wrote: if I have a shiny, new iPad and I decide to toss it out my window and ultimately or otherwise get rid of it, that's my choice. If you come and steal my iPad, you're a thief and a criminal, right?
I like that analogy and I just might use it the next time I hear someone ask a question like Pappy's. Tis crude but effective.
Ah, there is the rub; your iPad has no "life", the baby does at the moment of conception as human DNA is present. The "right to choose" was created by Roe v Wade; that right in fact does not exist. Actually the opposite is true; the baby has the right to life.
The 10 Commandments:
Thou shall not kill.
The first law of this country is the Declaration of Independence:
..."We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among those are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” ...
Clearly our founders were not addressing abortion, but they drew their inspiration from Gods law.
The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
So before every abortion the mother should be forced to go to court and show cause why she “chooses“ to kill that individual child.
This country needs to find its morality again; killing humans just for birth control is wrong.
You're throwing the bible (first testament) the Declaration of Independence and the 14th amendment (that refers to persons "born" here) at me? Give me a break. Unless you're a religious follower, the bible is just a bunch of words written by a bunch of men. The 14th amendment refers to children "born" so you can forget that and the Declaration of Independence refers to life, liberty....for "men". Do you know that abortions weren't illegal when the Declaration was written? It wasn't until the mid 19th century that anti abortion laws were enacted.
You're wrong. We've made progress from back alley abortions and completely criminalizing them to now where, IMO, we need to take a second look at viability and fetal pain and all that to develop reasonable laws.
And again, the real goal should be preventing these unwanted or "accidental" pregnancies in the first place.
RE: ABORTION - HairOfTheDog - 08-24-2015
(08-23-2015, 07:40 PM)Maggot Wrote:(08-23-2015, 07:26 PM)Duchess Wrote:(08-23-2015, 06:47 PM)Maggot Wrote: I will take "Just because" for 500.00 Alex.
Your opinion is that women have an abortion on a whim?
No, but women have been known to change their mind just because.
I don't personally know any women who change their minds/positions on matters of importance to themselves or to society as many times as you did in the course of under two days in this thread. And, you changed your mind/position without explanation or acknowledgment that you'd even done so; like on a whim or something. All whilst proclaiming yourself the voice for embryos and fetuses in the bodies of women everywhere.
I think men who feel strongly about what women should legally be able to do with their bodies should (a) not get a woman pregnant without advance mutual agreement and family preparedness, and (b) ensure that their male and female children get solid sex education early and understand how to access birth control before they become sexually active. Those are situations where it's actually your business, and how you can do your part to help reduce the number of abortions.
RE: ABORTION - HairOfTheDog - 08-24-2015
(08-23-2015, 06:22 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: I won't debate whether or not someone agrees with abortion, but I don't mind asking what pro-choice supporters think the main reason for aborting a fetus is?
I mean, if you had to break it down to percentages, do women have an abortion because: A) it's a form of birth control (I screwed that guy and I really am not ready for a baby), B) rape C) incest D) any other reason
I'm interested to know.
METHOD: In 2004, a structured survey was completed by 1,209 abortion patients at 11 large providers, and in-depth interviews were conducted with 38 women at four sites. Bivariate analyses examined differences in the reasons for abortion across subgroups, and multivariate logistic regression models assessed associations between respondent characteristics and reported reasons.
RESULTS: The reasons most frequently cited:
-having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%);
-she could not afford a baby now (73%);
-she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%).
-nearly four in 10 women said they had completed their childbearing.
-almost one-third were not ready to have a child.
-fewer than 1% said their parents' or partners' desire for them to have an abortion was the most important reason. Younger women often reported that they were unprepared for the transition to motherhood, while older women regularly cited their responsibility to dependents.
CONCLUSIONS: The decision to have an abortion is typically motivated by multiple, diverse and interrelated reasons. The themes of responsibility to others and resource limitations, such as financial constraints and lack of partner support, recurred throughout the study.
https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.html
RE: ABORTION - Jimbone - 08-24-2015
Just a casual observation, but from the results of the study it would seem that practicing birth control prior to getting pregnant would have addressed all of the reasons frequently cited for not wanting children.
Those results above seem to indicate that most abortions are post-coital birth control.
I'll cover my balls now before they get kicked in
RE: ABORTION - sally - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 11:18 AM)Jimbone Wrote: Just a casual observation, but from the results of the study it would seem that practicing birth control prior to getting pregnant would have addressed all of the reasons frequently cited for not wanting children.
Those results above seem to indicate that most abortions are post-coital birth control.
I'll cover my balls now before they get kicked in
Why would anyone kick your balls in? You're right.
RE: ABORTION - HairOfTheDog - 08-24-2015
Well, Jim, some of the women who got pregnant were using birth control and some weren't. Some of their male partners were using birth control, and some weren't.
If all of the women and all of their male partners had been using legitimate birth control during sex, around 85% of those pregnancies resulting from lack of birth control would have been prevented.
If you (collectively) are against abortion and also against sex education in schools and free or low-cost birth control access for all, consider yourself part of the problem.
Birth control -- it drastically reduces unwanted pregnancies and abortion rates. For real. Spread the word.
P.s. You can cup your balls if you wanna, but making an obvious and true statement isn't gonna get them kicked in.
RE: ABORTION - Blindgreed1 - 08-24-2015
*kicks Jim in the ole banana hammock* Just seemed like the thing to do?
RE: ABORTION - HairOfTheDog - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 11:54 AM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: *kicks Jim in the ole banana hammock* Just seemed like the thing to do?
He was asking for it (and even planning on it).
You're a giver, Gunnar.
RE: ABORTION - Maggot - 08-24-2015
What's wrong with sterilization? Does PP do it?
RE: ABORTION - HairOfTheDog - 08-24-2015
(08-24-2015, 12:06 PM)Maggot Wrote: What's wrong with sterilization? Does PP do it?
You could check.
Or, you could just get a vasectomy.