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TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE
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Cutz Offline
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Post: #43
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

(12-01-2014 12:42 PM)username Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 01:53 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  IMO, the fact that the caller wasn't sure if the pistol was real would be something the dispatcher should pass on to the responding officers because, as you said, it's the officers' job to assess the situation based on all of the information available.

^^That. What if the gun had obviously been fake (with the orange tip and all--and the 911 caller said as much), would it still make sense for the dispatcher to refrain from giving that information to the police? I think not.

Cutz has reached the limits of his grey matter on this one.

Yeah, because you'd call 911 about a kid with a toy guy that you were certain was fake. Genius idea there. If only there were some non-emergency police line you could call... like the non-emergency police lines that you can call. Or perhaps a boyscout could happen along and annoy the teen into leaving the public place.

The entire call was because a citizen was concerned that a kid had a gun. Him saying he doesn't know if it's real 3 times gives ZERO evidence that it's not a real gun. Should a dispatcher really say, "Yo officers, there's a kid in the park with a gun, but it's probably not real, so don't worry about it." What do they do then? Not respond to the call? Deal with more pressing crime? You assume there's a possible gun situation in the park and it's up to the officers to approach the situation correctly. They didn't, which I said, but telling cops unsubstantiated opinions from random citizens doesn't keep the cops safe. If the guy said, "I think I saw an orange tip on the gun, so it might be fake," that would be an observation that should be passed along. Him saying he has no idea is useless.

The facts are that there was a report of a possible gun from a caller. The report is what's being passed along as a fact, not whether the gun is real or not. The cops handled the situation wrong, but so did the teen. You can hear on the footage they think the kid is 20. All around bad situation.

Jesus, if the caller said, "It's ok tho, I think the kid is Batman," is that something the dispatcher should pass along? Don't arrest the guy because he's the caped crusader and deserves his chance at vigilante justice? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.





12-01-2014 04:11 PM
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username Offline
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

(12-01-2014 04:11 PM)Cutz Wrote:  If the guy said, "I think I saw an orange tip on the gun, so it might be fake," that would be an observation that should be passed along. Him saying he has no idea is useless.

That is splitting hairs in my opinion. The caller believed strongly enough that it was probably a fake gun that he told the dispatcher that at least twice (or was it three times)?

I think you said you agree that the officers screwed up in the way in which they drove up on the kid. Had they even had an inkling that it might be a fake gun, do you believe it would have gone down differently and that kid might still be alive?






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12-01-2014 04:26 PM
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Midwest Spy Away
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

I'm with Cutz on this (as I've stated previously).

Neutralizing the threat (gun in a public place) is Job #1. Does it suck that the kid was in reality menacing his neighbors with a fake gun and died because of it? Sure. I feel bad for his folks, but damn Mom & Dad, raise yo kids better.

Darwin obviously came out on top in this one as this kid may very well have used a real gun the first time he got a chance to.





12-01-2014 04:30 PM
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Cutz Offline
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

(12-01-2014 04:26 PM)username Wrote:  That is splitting hairs in my opinion. The caller believed strongly enough that it was probably a fake gun that he told the dispatcher that at least twice (or was it three times)?

I think you said you agree that the officers screwed up in the way in which they drove up on the kid. Had they even had an inkling that it might be a fake gun, do you believe it would have gone down differently and that kid might still be alive?
It's the difference between reluctance to file a report and observed evidence of a report. The caller, no matter how many times he stated his ignorance of the details, never reported contrary evidence to the reason he was calling.

If anything, telling the cops it's probably fake should lead them MORE into a dangerous situation. If you think it's fake you'll pull up that close to the suspect, get out of your car with less caution, and then get shot by a real gun or panic when you see what you think is a real gun and shoot the suspect.

Telling the cops a guy has a gun should make them more cautious and LESS likely to put themselves in the dangerous situation. The rookie felt threatened because the driver was a moron. If they had treated it with proper caution, the kid would have had every opportunity to drop the gun and get down on the ground.

It's like I see a lot of smoke in my neighbor's yard. If I call up 911 and tell them I saw a ton of smoke, but it could be a fire or they could be BBQing poorly, should the operator and dispatcher just send a cop to investigate and delay response time of mobilizing a fire truck? That increases the likelihood that my neighbors and my house burn down. Whereas if they send the truck... we have to assume they're not going to kick in all the doors and windows, unroll the hoses, and blast the shit out of the grill in the backyard.





12-01-2014 04:50 PM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

(12-01-2014 04:30 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote:  Darwin obviously came out on top in this one as this kid may very well have used a real gun the first time he got a chance to.

You're the worst example of what I was discussing with you in the Ferguson thread, IMO. I didn't really realize that before. Shaking my head.

A 12-year-old kid was bored and by himself, messing around in the park on the swings, with snowballs, on his cell phone, and with a toy gun that he never fired. All on video.

It's one thing not to blame the cops and understand how they could have been justified in killing the 12-year-old boy who in actuality represented no threat to them or anybody else. Sometimes terrible shit and mistakes just happen in life.

It's quite another to insinuate that this kid probably would have gone on to become a threat to society and so it's good that he was killed. Why do you think that way, MS? Because you believe all kids who play with toy guns in the park will grow up to be thugs? Because you believe the lives of all kids who play with toy guns are worthless? Rhetorical questions.

You're a moron, MS.





12-01-2014 10:27 PM
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Midwest Spy Away
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

(12-01-2014 10:27 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 04:30 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote:  Darwin obviously came out on top in this one as this kid may very well have used a real gun the first time he got a chance to.

You're the worst example of what I was discussing with you in the Ferguson thread, IMO. I didn't really realize that before. Shaking my head.

A 12-year-old kid was bored and by himself, messing around in the park on the swings, with snowballs, on his cell phone, and with a toy gun that he never fired. All on video.

It's one thing not to blame the cops and understand how they could have been justified in killing a boy who turned out to represent no threat to them or anybody else. Sometimes, terrible shit just happens in life.

It's quite another to insinuate that this kid probably would have gone on to become a threat to society and so it's good that he was killed. Why do you think that, MS? Do you think that because you believe all kids who play with toy guns in the park will grow up to be thugs? Are the lives of all kids who play with toy guns worthless? Rhetorical questions.

You're a moron, MS.

Why would the 911 caller say he was scaring people if he was just acting like a little kid, HotD?

Gimme a break.





12-01-2014 10:30 PM
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

(12-01-2014 04:50 PM)Cutz Wrote:  It's the difference between reluctance to file a report and observed evidence of a report. The caller, no matter how many times he stated his ignorance of the details, never reported contrary evidence to the reason he was calling.

If anything, telling the cops it's probably fake should lead them MORE into a dangerous situation. If you think it's fake you'll pull up that close to the suspect, get out of your car with less caution, and then get shot by a real gun or panic when you see what you think is a real gun and shoot the suspect.

Telling the cops a guy has a gun should make them more cautious and LESS likely to put themselves in the dangerous situation. The rookie felt threatened because the driver was a moron. If they had treated it with proper caution, the kid would have had every opportunity to drop the gun and get down on the ground.

It's like I see a lot of smoke in my neighbor's yard. If I call up 911 and tell them I saw a ton of smoke, but it could be a fire or they could be BBQing poorly, should the operator and dispatcher just send a cop to investigate and delay response time of mobilizing a fire truck? That increases the likelihood that my neighbors and my house burn down. Whereas if they send the truck... we have to assume they're not going to kick in all the doors and windows, unroll the hoses, and blast the shit out of the grill in the backyard.

You, motherfucker, are giving me a headache. First this:

It's the difference between reluctance to file a report and observed evidence of a report. The caller, no matter how many times he stated his ignorance of the details, never reported contrary evidence to the reason he was calling.

Again, how can you prove a negative? He believed it was a fake gun. Short of confronting the kid and actually examining the gun himself, he made a report based on his (correct) observations.

Your comment assumes that the police SHOULDN'T actually assess the situation and respond accordingly. If someone yells "fire", they should just respond with shock and awe? Always?

I don't know what you mean by that. The caller reported what he saw. A kid, probably with a fake gun, pulling it out and maybe scaring some people.
If anything, telling the cops it's probably fake should lead them MORE into a dangerous situation. If you think it's fake you'll pull up that close to the suspect, get out of your car with less caution, and then get shot by a real gun or panic when you see what you think is a real gun and shoot the suspect.


A fire is a much different situation than what occurred here. Of course the fire department should respond aggressively and hopefully not kill anyone in the process.

It's like I see a lot of smoke in my neighbor's yard. If I call up 911 and tell them I saw a ton of smoke, but it could be a fire or they could be BBQing poorly, should the operator and dispatcher just send a cop to investigate and delay response time of mobilizing a fire truck? That increases the likelihood that my neighbors and my house burn down. Whereas if they send the truck... we have to assume they're not going to kick in all the doors and windows, unroll the hoses, and blast the shit out of the grill in the backyard.






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12-01-2014 10:54 PM
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crash Offline
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

Is it typically American to split hairs over the result of a problem rather than eliminate the cause of it?

Why does the general public need easy access to replica guns? Why the fuck should kids be able to access something that looks close enough to the real thing to get them shot in the first place? Over here, the laws around replica weapons are almost as strict as the laws around real weapons. Guess how many kids have been shot here in the last 10 years by a cop who thought they had a real gun? Zero. Big fat fucking zero.

Eliminate the root problem and all the other bullshit disappears.





12-01-2014 11:06 PM
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

(12-01-2014 11:06 PM)crash Wrote:  Is it typically American to split hairs over the result of a problem rather than eliminate the cause of it?

Unfortunately that would be a resounding "yes".






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12-01-2014 11:17 PM
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

(12-01-2014 10:30 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote:  Why would the 911 caller say he was scaring people if he was just acting like a little kid, HotD?

Gimme a break.

I think you need a lot more than a break, MS. Suggesting that a child's life was worthless because he played with a toy gun and it scared someone may be your most moronic musing to date.

Some toy guns look very real -- we already know that's a problem across the country. If someone's waving around what looks to be a pistol and you don't know whether it's real or not, it could be scary. It could be concerning enough to call 911 requesting for police to come check it out -- to make sure that what you believe could be a juvenile with a fake pistol is really just that.

I watched the video of Tamir waving the gun at a passerby while the eyewitness sat in the Gazebo calling 911 in the background. It's posted upthread. It made me sad that he had no playmate. If he'd been playing cops and robbers or whatever with a friend, I don't think it would have been concerning to anyone, but I could see how his playing by himself and approaching passerbys in that manner might scare someone. Certainly that doesn't support your contention that Tamir Rice's life was worthless. But, you stick to your guns on that, MS.

Mind boggling combination of arrogance, stupidity, unkindness and a few other ugly things; hard to connect your sentiments here to a supposedly devoted Christian and loving father.





12-01-2014 11:40 PM
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

Just for the hell of it, I googled images of twelve year old boys. Are you men so fucking dense that you wouldn't think that a twelve year old kid MIGHT just be brandishing a fake gun? We all hear about the isolated twelve year old killers but seriously, on an odds basis, how many 12 year old kids are really out there waving around real guns? As opposed to pellet, "fake" guns? Fucking get real. In the olden days, how many of you guys played cops and robbers with look-a-like guns before orange tips were even suggested? You should have been shot, idiots.

https://www.google.com/search?q=twelve+y...Q&dpr=0.75

My brother shot me in the ass with his bb gun. It hurt like a bitch but I'm glad the cops didn't come and shoot him dead for it.






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12-02-2014 12:50 AM
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

(12-01-2014 11:40 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  Mind boggling combination of arrogance, stupidity, unkindness and a few other ugly things; hard to connect your sentiments here to a supposedly devoted Christian and loving father.


He does it all the time. He's white bread America, safe in his little cul-de-sac and if he can't relate to you in any fashion then chances are you are a bad person capable of doing very bad things. You need to be watched and stripped of your rights.






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12-02-2014 07:15 AM
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Carsman Offline
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

Homeland security has a slogan out there saying: "See something, Say Something"!

I can't help but wonder/imagine how the 911 caller (who saw something & said something) must now feel, seeing how this tragidy turned out. What was supposed to be a good deed, turned out to be disastrous!
(not saying, to not still "see something, say something")






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12-02-2014 08:19 AM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

(12-02-2014 07:15 AM)Duchess Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 11:40 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  Mind boggling combination of arrogance, stupidity, unkindness and a few other ugly things; hard to connect your sentiments here to a supposedly devoted Christian and loving father.
He does it all the time. He's white bread America, safe in his little cul-de-sac and if he can't relate to you in any fashion then chances are you are a bad person capable of doing very bad things. You need to be watched and stripped of your rights.

MidwestSpy went beyond advocating stripping a 12-year-old of his rights to play alone in a public park near the youth center. MidwestSpy went so far as to contend that the 12-year-old didn't have a right to live; that it's a good thing 12-year-old Tamir Rice was shot to death.

MidwestSpy contends that the 911 caller's perception that Tamir was scaring people justifies his belief that 12-year-old Tamir Rice was not really a kid, but instead a worthless future threat to society. And, therefore, in his sanctimonious Spy eyes, the world is better off now that 12-year-old Tamir Rice is dead.

Nevermind that MidwestSpy had previously insisted that the very same 911 caller's perceptions were worthless, in regards to the pistol probably being a fake and Tamir possibly being a juvenile. Let's just pretend that we're as obtuse as MidwestSpy and didn't notice the selective and contradictory reasoning he spewed in order to justify dancing on the scary black boy's grave.

Honestly, I'm disgusted and that's not something that I feel easily or often, especially when it comes to on-line interactions.





12-02-2014 09:14 AM
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