TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

[HairOfTheDog]

Have you done the ice bucket challenge? Because I'd love to help you with that.

I have not.

But, I saw the version of the ice bucket challenge that those Cleveland teens pulled on their autistic classmate.

There is no doubt in my mind that you are more devious than those little assholes and could come up with an even shittier version of the challenge to pull on an able-minded colleague.

I will write a check to the ALS foundation and skip your challenge, mister.

[Duchess]

Maggot would use something like maple syrup.

[Maggot]

skull caps would be allowed in that case. I know, don't mess with the hair.

[HairOfTheDog]

I personally am saddened/shocked that neither of those cops rendered aid to that boy. He did not deserve to die like that.

Those cops should face something for their neglect.

First, you insist that it's a good thing for society that a 12-year-old boy was shot to death by police when he posed no threat to them, because you presume that he would have grown up to be worthless in your sanctimonious eyes. "Darwin" and all.

Now, you come in here lamenting about the fact that he wasn't given aid for 4 minutes before he did society a favor and died.

Such a phony. Seriously, MS, you're a piece of work.

[Blindgreed1]

I like tater tots.

Edit: Sorry... Wrong thread.

[HairOfTheDog]

WHAT DO POLICE TACTIC EXPERTS THINK OF THE CASE FACTS?

The three who were consulted for this article concur that the Cleveland PD officers did not respond appropriately.

The shooting remains under review by the department's Use of Deadly Force Investigation Team.

SNIP:
The experts, contacted Tuesday by Northeast Ohio Media Group, each concluded from viewing surveillance video of the shooting that the officers should have maintained a greater distance between their cruiser and Tamir.

"The tactics were very poor," said David Thomas, senior research fellow for the Police Foundation. "If the driver would have stopped a distance away so that the primary officer wasn't right there to get involved in shooting, it may have played out differently."

The Police Foundation, whose organization works with police agencies across the country, said the Cleveland officers should have been trained to take cover when dealing with someone who might be armed and to tell the individual to drop the weapon.

Hubert Williams, 30-year police veteran and former president of the Police Foundation, said Garmback should not have pulled the police car so close to where Tamir was standing if they believed he was armed -- as they were told by a 9-1-1 dispatcher.

By doing so, Garmback put Loehmann in a more vulnerable position to be shot by Tamir, in turn making it more likely that he would fire his own gun in self-defense, Williams said.

"Pulling up to a scene where an individual had a gun is somewhat problematic," Williams said. "If a guy has a real gun, you're definitely pulling into the line of fire."

Experts also expressed concern about whether Loehmann followed protocol for verbally commanding Tamir to drop his weapon. Police said at a press conference that Loehmann called out for Tamir three times to drop his gun before he opened fire. However, the video shows Loehmann firing his gun within seconds of coming into contact with Tamir, and Williams said it looks like no verbal commands were given.

Thomas Aveni, executive director of the Police Policy Studies Council, a research-based consultation corporation based out of New Hampshire, also questioned why the officers got so close to Tamir so quickly. He said the poor quality of the video makes it difficult to create an accurate account of what transpired, but the officers may have shouted the commands through an open window.

Williams said approaching Tamir from a distance would have not only put the officers at an advantage for firing at Tamir if he was a threat to them, but also would have given them an opportunity to communicate with the boy.

"It occurred too soon, and that's going to be the biggest problem that the city of Cleveland is going to be faced with," said Williams.

Source: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf...quest.html
====================================

The 911 dispatcher's actions are not specifically covered in the above article. Based on what I've read and the Deputy Chief's public statement that her failure to transmit some eyewitness information is part of the investigation, I think whether her actions will be determined to have been a contributing factor in the shooting death will likely boil down to her explanation.

She will need to explain why she chose not to pass on the eyewitness' perceptions that Tamir was probably a juvenile with a fake gun. It is not a 911 dispatch policy to withhold callers'/eyewitnesses' perceptions about the subject or the weapon from responding officers.

[username]

I feel vindicated.

[Duchess]

The kid didn't stand a chance the moment those cops decided to jump the curb and drive right upon him.

...and I have to say (even though I am guilty of this myself), I'm sick of hearing/reading/seeing about how difficult cops have it these days. If you don't think you can cope with how the world is these days, not to mention, not being properly trained, don't apply for the position. My only take on this kind of thing now is that there are many cops out there who are seemingly scared shitless. They have no place on our streets.

[Cutz]

I feel vindicated.

Well that's pretty stupid considering the link HOTD quoted says like 15 times that the distance the driver left between them and the suspect was the major cause of the dangerous situation that led to the shooting. AKA... exactly what I said three times in my posting on the subject.

But go ahead and blame the 911 operator... she practically shot the kid herself huh!

[HairOfTheDog]

I feel vindicated.

This one is definitely a questionable incident.

From the dispatcher's communications, to the responding officers' approach, to the speed at which fatal force was exerted, to the failure of responding officers to provide aid to the victim immediately after the shooting... I have a lot of questions.

There may be explanations for some/all of it and the experts who weighed in for that article certainly don't have access to the officers' statements or other information that the investigators are gathering. But, it's in no way off-base to question the police tactics and whether use of deadly force was appropriate in this case, IMO.

It could be that converging factors led to Tamir being shot and killed in the park, but that the officers acted appropriately given what they had to go on. The three tactical experts cited in the article, however, do not believe that to be true based on the case facts they've reviewed.

Whether Tamir was playing aggressively, whether his parents should have known better than to let him go to the park with a real-looking fakie, whether one believes family values are lacking in black communities on the whole, whether laws should be introduced to abolish certain types of toy guns...all viable topics of general discussion and interesting to ponder. None of them are relevant, however, to investigators determining whether the police officers were justified in the use of deadly force against Tamir Rice. This was a 12-year-old boy who did not rob or assault or shoot at anyone -- it's not "he said/he said/they said" as was the case in the Michael Brown shooting where there was no video. Tamir Rice is not a bad guy here in any rational set of eyes, IMO.

[HairOfTheDog]

Tamir Rice's uncle said at a memorial service on Wednesday that police need to change how they train officers and take a closer look at how they communicate with dispatchers.

He told mourners that they must be advocates for change through peaceful protest, and that the community needs to become Tamir's voice because he can no longer speak for himself.






Meanwhile, Fred Loehmann -- the father of rookie Officer Tim Loehmann (pictured above)-- told reporters that his son told him that he had no choice but to shoot. Fred Loehmann is a retired LEO.

Tim Loehmann's Independence Ohio Police Department employment history reveals that he resigned for "personal reasons" after being on the job just five months, from July 2012 until December 2012.

He was described by former supervisors as a "distracted and weepy" officer who failed to follow orders during firearms training, and on one occasion left his firearm in an unsecure locker.

Supervisors questioned Loehmann's maturity and were already in the process of removing him from the police department when he left. Loehmann started with Cleveland police in March 2014.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tamir-rice-m...in-police/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cop-who-shot...ex-bosses/

[HairOfTheDog]

The Discrepancies in the Police Narrative vs. What Really Happened

Excellent short video that highlights what the Cleveland police union told the press before the video of the whole incident was discovered (and released, by request of Tamir's family).




Thank god there was surveillance video at the park. Without it, the public and the grand jury would have heard a very misleading police narrative.

[username]

Wow. The police narrative is a flat out lie.

[Duchess]

Not surprised at all. I've yet to encounter any LEO whether in real life or reading about online or after listening to someone's experience that doesn't make me think they feel they are above the law. I would never again take their word for anything. Like everything else in life a few ruin it for those who are genuinely good. They can't be trusted.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yeah, given all of the information that I've reviewed over the last couple of days, it's very difficult for me to continue giving the police the benefit of the doubt until the investigation concludes.

Hard to imagine what the investigators (hopefully unbiased investigators) could uncover/suggest that would convince me that this was a justifiable use of deadly force given that:

1. Either the officers lied to their union president, or the union president lied to the press, about the scene and the boy's actions. That tells me that one or both had to know that the officers' approach and response was not appropriate.

2. It's a fact that the officers or their representatives lied about the scene and Tamir's actions, therefore I am inclined to believe that they also lied about Officer Loehmann giving three clear instructions for Tamir to put up his hands in less than 2 seconds. I also seriously doubt that Tamir reached for his weapon (unless he was actually instructed to toss his weapon and Loehmann shot him when Tamir tried to do so). Too bad there was no dash or body cam audio.

3. The Cleveland Police claim they did not review Loehmann's personnel file before hiring him. They did not know this:
-The file includes a letter from Deputy Chief Jim Polak to the HR department on November 29, 2012.
-The letter said Loehmann was "distracted and weepy" while taking a state range qualification course. It said Loehmann could not follow simple directions, communicate clearly and his handgun performance was "dismal."
-The letter also said it was clear Loehmann was not "mentally prepared" to be doing the firearm training that day.
-Loehmann's "emotional meltdown" continued throughout the day. Loehmann blamed problems with a girlfriend.Loehmann also admitted he had a similar meltdown one time while during police academy training.
-The letter also mentions an incident where Loehmann left his firearm unsecured in a locker overnight.
-The letter says Loehmann's behavior showed a pattern of a lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions since he started at the department in July 2012. Source: http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/...n-incident

None of that ^ explains why the training officer behind the wheel chose to roll up on Tamir, which appears to be a major tactical error. But, it makes me question Loehmann's qualifications to be in the field in the first place.

If the grand jury fails to find reasonable cause to indict at least Officer Loehmann once they see the video and evidence of police deception, I'll be shocked (despite recent controversy regarding grand juries' failure to indict other police officers). I hope I won't be shocked.

[Duchess]

His handgun performance is dismal and yet he is given a gun and sent out onto the streets. Jesus Christ. I'm so disgusted.

[Cutz]

Oh my god, second guess the crap out of the situation ladies.

The kid was walking towards COPS going to his waistband for a GUN. No matter how the narrative was wrong or misleading, no matter what the rookie's evaluations from TWO YEARS AGO say, and regardless of the questionable tactics employed by the driver, the video clearly shows the kid walking towards the cops and going for his gun. I would assume he was going to throw it on the ground or show them it wasn't real... but the kid got shot because of HIS ACTIONS first and foremost. Do cops need to wait until they're shot to fire back? Jesus.

[HairOfTheDog]

I'm looking at case facts and forming opinions, gentleman.

My opinions may change with more facts, or they may be proven wrong (or right).

You, on the other hand, are supplying your perception and insisting that it's fact, rather than opinion. Just like your insistence that questioning omissions made by the 911 dispatcher is "ridiculous". You should call the Use of Deadly Force Investigators and the Cleveland PD and tell them how ridiculous they are for investigating that very matter!

I like reading your perceptions and opinions, like everyone else's. But, at this point, that's all they are.

The cops lied. Fact. Jesus.

[Cutz]

I'm not supplying a version of anything. You posted the video yourself. The last 7 seconds of this video, watch it full screen.

Cops roll up, he walks towards them going into his waistband, he gets shot.

There's no version of that where that isn't what happened.

[HairOfTheDog]

I'm not supplying a version of anything. You posted the video yourself. The last 7 seconds of this video, watch it full screen.

Cops roll up, he walks towards them going into his waistband, he gets shot.

There's no version of that where that isn't what happened.

Was he going to pull out the pellet gun? Was he confused about the supposed commands that were reportedly being yelled at him? Was he actually told to toss out his weapon?

You don't know. So, it's your opinion that he wrongly motioned to pull the gun and that's why the officer, who you contend shouldn't have been in that position in the first place, had to shoot and kill him.

The cops or their reps lied -- that's a fact. That may not lead you to further question the rest of their narrative and their perceptions, but it does me.