TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

[Cutz]

That's true. They could have told him to discard the weapon and when he went for it, they shot him. I don't have audio, so I can't know. If that is the case, these officers sure pulled off the perfect murder.

[HairOfTheDog]

That's right. It is true.

I no longer assume that Tamir was told 3 times to put up his hands. Why? Because the same information source told me that he was sitting with a group and that he picked up the gun and put it in his pants when the cops arrived on the scene. Those were lies. That source is no longer credible.

However, I acknowledge that although they lied about some things, it doesn't mean they lied about everything. The police may be telling the truth about the commands to Tamir and Tamir may have gone for his weapon against those commands. But, it is reasonable to assume that those are not facts, considering the now-tainted source.

In any case, "a perfect murder" is not something that has been suggested, nor would it apply here under any circumstances. A shooting/homicide can be unjustified without being murder. And, even if this was a murder, it sure as hell couldn't be classified as a perfect one, given that the hypothetical murderer didn't realize there was a tape that contradicted his story.

I just want the truth and justice. I hope it comes out. I too wish there was audio -- if that existed, there would be much less ambiguity.

[Duchess]

Cutz, did you watch the video of the guy at the gas station who was told he was pulled over for not wearing a seatbelt? At the gas station! When the guy went to get his license after being requested to do so the cop shot him! I'm not saying all cops need to be looked at closely but there are enough of these instances that something has to be done. In general, I am not prepared to cut them any slack because of their job. So many of them don't even have any business being in that profession.

[Duchess]

I acknowledge that although they lied about some things, it doesn't mean they lied about everything.

They lied in an attempt to cover their ass. They can no longer be trusted to tell the truth about anything. That's how I feel and that's how I view them. Lying liars.

[username]

That's true. They could have told him to discard the weapon and when he went for it, they shot him. I don't have audio, so I can't know. If that is the case, these officers sure pulled off the perfect murder.

It reminds me of the guy who got shot after being told to give his license to the cops...he reaches in the car for it and BAM, BAM, BAM!!

Even if they told him to "drop his weapon" he would have had to take it out of his waistband to drop the stupid thing.

I'd like to see more of the video. What the hell were the cops doing for the almost 4 minutes after they shot the kid and someone else showed up and began first aid?

I don't think it was remotely a perfect murder. I think the cop that fired will get criminally charged.

The 911 operator will probably just get fired and named in the civil suit.

[Cutz]

THE PERFECT MURDER

[Maggot]

At some point a sacrifice must be made..........woe to the next white cop that shoots a non-white.

[HairOfTheDog]

Well, Mags, my wormy friend. Toss out the bait and I'll go ahead and bite if I just happening to be swimming around.......

I don't believe people were out to get Italian American cops when they hoped for NYPD Officer Daniel Pantaleo to be indicted for the chokehold compression homicide of unarmed, non violent African American Eric Garner.

I don't believe that people were out to get Hispanic cops when they hoped for the manslaughter conviction of Fullerton PD Officer Manual Ramos for the compression and beating homicide of unarmed, non violent Caucasian Kelly Thomas.

I don't believe that people were out to get white cops when they hoped for an indictment of Sonoma PD Officer Erick Gelhaus in the shooting death of 13-year-old Hispanic Andy Lopez, who was shot 7 times carrying a bebe gun.

And, I don't believe people are out to get white cops when they hope that Cleveland PD Officer Timothy Loehmann (and possibly his partner Frank Gambarck) are indicted in the shooting death of 12-year-old African American Tamir Rice, who was shot in the park carrying a pellet gun.

I don't believe that white cops should be immune from being questioned or held accountable for the killing of unarmed or toy-carrying adults and children. For me, whether a killing is justified or not depends on the circumstances of each case -- the races of the cops and the races of the people they killed are typically irrelevant in making that determination, and no one (including cops of any color) is above the law or exempt from accountability.

By far, most police killings that I read or hear about are IMO justified based on the known circumstances. However, some are highly questionable and deserve close scrutiny/investigation if there is reason to suspect that the killings were due to police brutality, incompetence, use of unwarranted deadly force, etc...

It seems to me from your comments of late, Mags, that you see it only in black (or non-white) and white; that you truly believe that when white cops are questioned they're being persecuted or sacrificed. I can filter out the irrelevant race stirrings and don't see it the same, unless there is indeed evidence suggesting that a killing was racially motivated. In this case, I don't believe that Timothy Loehmann will be a woeful sacrificial white lamb if he is charged in the shooting death of Tamir Rice. I believe his own actions (and possibly deceptions) will have put him there and that he has a right to defend himself and his actions, which he will get if he's indicted.

[Carsman]

It's a shame we all can't live by this motto.

[username]

Koom-by-ya!!!!!

I actually like it in a mushy kind of way. The only thing that needs to be added are "not all black people are racist". Thank you, Charles Barkley.

[Carsman]

Koom-by-ya!!!!!

I actually like it in a mushy kind of way. The only thing that needs to be added are "not all black people are racist". Thank you, Charles Barkley.

Right, unfortunately the symbol was made before Barkley's remarks, & so it needs to be updated!

[sally]

Wow, just wow.

Holy shit . There is something really wrong with him.

[Duchess]

He's the Christ-whisperer.

It's still just as funny today.

[HairOfTheDog]

CIVIL SUIT FILED

I think Eric Garner's family is going to prevail in their civil suit against NYPD and officer Daniel Pantaleo, despite a NYC grand jury failing to indict Pantaleo in the death by choke-hold.

In Tamir's case, I think one or both of the officers involved in the killing will be indicted. But, even if that doesn't happen, I think his family too will prevail in civil court.

These civil suits may wind up being the catalyst for reform when it comes to police training, screening, and acknowledgement of error in killing of citizens by LEOs.


Snip:
The family of 12-year-old Tamir Rice, who had a pellet gun when he was fatally shot by a police officer in Cleveland, filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the officer who fired the shot, his partner and the city of Cleveland on Friday. The lawsuit alleges that Officers Timothy Loehmann and Frank Garmback acted "unreasonably, negligently (and) recklessly" when Loehmann shot Rice, who was playing with an "airsoft" pellet gun, on Nov. 22, according to an eight-page civil rights complaint.

"Had the defendant officers properly approached Tamir and properly investigated his possession of the replica gun they would undoubtedly have determined ... that the gun was fake and that the subject was a juvenile," the complaint said. The lawsuit also alleges that the officers didn't provide Rice with medical attention for more than four minutes "as he lay on the ground alive and bleeding." Rice died in the hospital the next day.

Surveillance video released by the police show the officers' car pulling up right next to the boy, and that Loehmann fired on Tamir within seconds. "Young boys playing with replica guns are commonplace in America and police are expected to approach them safely if an investigation is warranted, not shoot them dead within two seconds," the lawsuit said.

The lawsuit also lists the City of Cleveland as a defendant for allegedly failing to properly train Loehmann and Garmback. The suit claims that the City of Cleveland "failed to secure and read" officer Loehmann's personnel file from a previous police position, which deemed him emotionally unstable and unfit for duty. The lawsuit points out that the City of Cleveland has been the subject of a federal civil rights investigation, detailed by Attorney General Eric Holder Thursday, which found a pattern of "unreasonable and in some cases unnecessary force." A spokesman for the City of Cleveland, Daniel Williams, told NBC News the city had not yet seen the suit as of Friday afternoon and declined to comment.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fami...ul-n262661

[FAHQTOO]

He's the Christ-whisperer.

It's still just as funny today.

I just now caught up with this thread...that cracked me up enough to get the cats attention.

[Duchess]

I'll be getting a laugh out of that for a good long time.

[thekid65]

Yes, I'm fully aware of your location, sweetheart. How many times have you been shot at? How many times have you been harassed for simply doing your job? How many little gang-bangers do you deal with on a day-to-day basis? How many of your coworkers have been killed for simply doing their job? How many murder/drive-by scenes have you witnessed personally, and the aftermath?

I think you must have forgotten the opening line to your opening post in this thread, muffin.

You wrote this: "Those that think the officer acted to hastily have obviously not spent enough time in the crime ridden areas of larger cities."

Your "obvious" observation was wrong. Since I am, in fact, questioning whether the officer responded too hastily, I addressed your original admonishing comment about my qualifications to do so.

Nobody here needs to be Kid65-qualified to question and talk about police action. But, since I like you so much and all, I responded anyhow.

And, yes, I have seen kids with guns in Los Angeles, Long Beach, and San Francisco at different points. Yes, I've encountered gang-bangers. No, I've never been a cop (nor a gang-banger, nor have I been shot mistakenly by a cop...). Beyond that, I don't feel compelled to share my personal experiences with crime and don't think it's relevant here anyway.

And the song remains the same -- I don't need to be Kid65-qualified to "come back and talk" about this case, question the cops/toy manufacturers/911 communications or anything else. If you consider that "sitting back in judgment", imagine me reclining with my feet up and a gavel next to my coffee cup -- or sue me.

The cops were not being fired upon and they were aware that the person they were approaching had not fired a gun at all.

Ahh..so in your world, the police should wait until bullets are being shot at them before returning fire...just sit back and hope the assailant misses with the first few shots, eh?

No. I don't think that, which is why I never said it.

I said the police weren't responding to "shots fired" or "shooting in progress". Perhaps if the officers had been informed that the eyewitness who called into 911 figured that the male was a juvenile with a fake gun, they would have approached the situation differently. Perhaps not. It's a legitimate question.

In any case, Tamir was shot less than 2 seconds from the time the officers rolled up on him and I question whether the officers rushed to action without appropriately assessing the situation. It's possible. I'm interested in what the investigation reveals on that front.

Don't get me wrong here...I'm not all gung-ho pro cop....but I feel for these guys, and the split decisions they have to make...and a lot of the time, they are in no-win situations.

Yes, I can see by your posts that you are emotional and going off general feelings rather than specific case facts and logic, which is also an interesting view point to consider.

I understand your general sentiments and don't disagree with them. But, I wouldn't sit back and judge you even if you were all gung-ho pro cop.

This is all fine and dandy, but I'm not asking anyone to be thekid65 qualified to give an opinion. I am tired of cops being judged by folks that are generally clueless on the day-to-day shit these guys/gals have to deal with, and generally are just responding to now what's become very sensationalistic, and judgmental reporting by an ever increasing liberal media.

Is 2 seconds too quickly to pull a trigger? Perhaps. Could an additional 2 seconds cost an officer his life? Perhaps.

I for one, would err on the side of caution.

The thing is...the media, and the public just need someone to blame...when sometimes, there's a multitude of independant actions or inaction done by several people that lead to the end result.

[HairOfTheDog]

That's fine, Kid.

You get to believe that all killings by cops should be unquestioned; that dead citizens who weren't in the commission of violent crimes (or any crimes, in some cases) are not something that the PD internal affairs, the media, the public or the dead victims' families should investigate or be concerned over.

I get to believe differently. I appreciate and support LE on the whole, but I don't worship them or believe that they are (or should be) all powerful and above the law while in the commission of their jobs. I think it's good that people -- whether you personally think they're qualified to have opinions/feelings/discussions about police/crime or not -- are pushing for more accountability when it come to cases involving police corruption, brutality, and incompetence resulting in death. That loudly vocalized concern may lead to change and improvement. Looking the other way or blindly accepting every civilian death as a cost of business, on the other hand, is a dangerously passive mindset, IMO.

By the way, to the best of my knowledge, you've never been a field cop? So, your desire to see things only from the cops' point of view requires no more crime-related personal experience than my desire to put myself in the shoes of the cops, the dead victims, and their families and see things more broadly.

And, yes, of course, there are usually several factors leading to the final outcome in any incident. People of at least average intelligence recognize as much and can evaluate each factor both independently and as part of the whole when forming opinions and asking questions.

We can agree to disagree.

[thekid65]

That's fine, Kid.

You get to believe that all killings by cops should be unquestioned; that dead citizens who weren't in the commission of violent crimes (or any crimes, in some cases) are not something that the PD internal affairs, the media, the public or the dead victims' families should investigate or be concerned over.

Oh please.... do point out that statement that was made by me...I'll wait patiently.

By the way, to the best of my knowledge, you've never been a field cop? So, your desire to see things only from the cops' point of view requires no more crime-related personal experience than my desire to put myself in the shoes of the cops, the dead victims, and their families and see things more broadly.

Again, I ask you to do the same as I stated above (about my so called "desire"). We are talking a specific case here. And yes, I'm trying to see it from a point of view from someone who deals with real gang members, real guns, and real crime every day, instead of pointing fingers at people saying "you should have done this!!" or..."This should have been done!!"

There was another one recently, where the cop shot some poor bastard who was just reaching into his vehicle to get his ID as requested by the officer. Now, that fucking cop needs to have his comeuppance...no doubt about it. The video was clear, the audio was clear, and no weapon was shown.

But in the case we're discussing, folks are making judgements on a stop motion blurry video taken from what...50 yards or so? Question everything as you'd like...it's our right to do so...it's one of the things that makes America what it is.

And, yes, of course, there are usually several factors leading to the final outcome in any incident. People of at least average intelligence recognize as much and can evaluate each factor both independently and as part of the whole when forming opinions and asking questions.

Exactly...but yet, the loudest voices are those that are rushing to judgement based on a blurry video. The rational ones await the outcome of the investigation.

We can agree to disagree.

Yes, we can.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yes, we can.

Correct. That is the answer to all the questions you posed to me above.

Some of us want to know more, speculate based on what we do know, pose new questions, examine new information as it becomes available, and wait for the results of the investigation (and may even question those, if we're so inclined).

None of which is your deal. I get it, Kid.