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Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management
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Maggot Offline
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Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

This thread is dedicated to the discussion of the crazy ranchers and their takeover of an outpost on government land. And the reasons on both sides of the issue.


OK I found a few things about the beginning of this disagreement.

I think many, if not most, cattlemen can’t understand why Cliven Bundy is considered a hero in some people’s eyes. After all, he didn’t pay his grazing fees for 20 years. Of course, like most things, the situation is a little more complicated than it appears at first glance.

Where's the beef?






01-20-2016 01:04 PM
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Donovan Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

I understand most of the locals think these guys are douchebags.






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01-20-2016 01:08 PM
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Maggot Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

Is there a percentage of the total that believe they are douchbags. Is it 51% giving them a majority? or 90%






01-20-2016 01:19 PM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

The situation is not complicated and that opinion piece you posted spells out exactly what we already know.

Some ranchers want things to be like they were 100 years ago. Most of them realize that times change, though nobody really likes it that our taxes and costs of doing business rise.

Cliven Bundy and his sons are criminals, that's a fact that doesn't become any less true because some like-minded people view them as 'heroes'. They break the law by evading taxes, pointing loaded firearms at law enforcement, and stealing other people's property. They do so for their own gain and because they think they're entitled, partially due to their faith and their family history. They are criminals.

I have no issues with anyone protesting the government land management or anything else, in urban or rural locales. Freedom of speech and public assembly -- I'm a big fan. I do have a problem with people committing crimes that threaten others, and I hope Cliven, Ammon, and Ryan Bundy face consequences (as the writer of the OP opinion piece predicts they will).





01-20-2016 01:28 PM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-20-2016 01:08 PM)Donovan Wrote:  I understand most of the locals think these guys are douchebags.

Not just the locals..

The leader of an armed group who took over a national wildlife refuge in southeastern Oregon weeks ago joined hundreds of area residents at a tense community meeting -- listening quietly as many loudly chanted at him to "go."

Ammon Bundy, who has been trying to drum up support for his cause, didn't speak at Tuesday night's meeting in Burns where residents discussed the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge which began earlier this month.

Some of the several hundred community members spoke to Bundy directly. One woman thanked him for raising awareness around issues of public lands, but told him it's time to go home to his family.

"Ammon, you need to go home to your family; thank you," said local resident Jennifer Williams. "I've heard so many things I didn't know before. Now I'm aware."

Other speakers were less congenial and at times angry and emotional in comments directed at the armed group as well as at local government officials and federal government, in part for not doing more to end the occupation.

Harney County Judge Steve Grasty took the microphone over to where Bundy sat in the bleachers and told Bundy he'd drive him wherever he wanted to go, as far as Utah. He also offered to meet with him anytime.

Bundy and his small posse left after the meeting without incident.

Rallies also were held in Portland and Eugene, Oregon and in Boise, Idaho, Tuesday, with hundreds of people calling for Bundy to end the occupation and pointing out that federal management allows all kinds of people to enjoy public lands.

Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward reiterated in a statement before the Burns meeting that law enforcement wants the armed group to vacate the refuge.

He said police have arrested two men affiliated with the group and included a new report that Duane Kirkland of Hamilton, Montana, was stopped and arrested Thursday on a felon in possession of a firearm charge. Police arrested Kenneth Medenbach, of La Pine, in Burns Friday for unauthorized use of a vehicle authorities say was taken illegally from the refuge.


Full story: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/20/ore...ts-go.html





01-20-2016 01:42 PM
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Maggot Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

I am absolutely sure they will face charges. That is not debatable. The debate is if the government and its entities and policies are the best ones suited to decide management of land. I believe that given the government policies of the past think that they are more politically motivated than common sense motivated as is shown in quite a few policies that come out. I believe they have made their statement and should move on before it becomes a loss of lives.






01-20-2016 01:52 PM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

In your opinion, Maggot. To which you're entitled.

You and the Bundys can work to affect change in many ways that don't include threatening lives and committing other crimes.

To the best of my knowledge, Cliven's still grazing without paying taxes or back taxes, walking around free talking about how Jesus and the Book of Mormon justify his crimes, and about how negros were better off as slaves, and whatnot.

So, while his sons may also be charged, it's my hope that they and Cliven are actually pursued by law enforcement, not just allowed to dodge court appearances and carry on breaking the law- same as it ever was.





01-20-2016 02:01 PM
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Duchess Away
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management



I still believe that if they were black or brown or red and doing this it never, ever would have been allowed to go this far. LE would have burned them out with no thought to whether they lived or died. The lawbreakers would not have been free to pursue their agenda. No way, no how. They are breaking the law! They have threatened the lives of others.






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01-20-2016 02:18 PM
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Maggot Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-20-2016 02:01 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  In your opinion, Maggot. To which you're entitled.

You and the Bundys can work to affect change in many ways that don't include threatening lives and committing other crimes.

To the best of my knowledge, Cliven's still grazing without paying taxes or back taxes, walking around free talking about how Jesus and the Book of Mormon justify his crimes, and about how negros were better off as slaves, and whatnot.

So, while his sons may also be charged, it's my hope that they and Cliven are actually pursued by law enforcement, not just allowed to dodge court appearances and carry on breaking the law- same as it ever was.

You don't think they will face charges?






01-20-2016 02:29 PM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-20-2016 02:29 PM)Maggot Wrote:  
(01-20-2016 02:01 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  In your opinion, Maggot. To which you're entitled.

You and the Bundys can work to affect change in many ways that don't include threatening lives and committing other crimes.

To the best of my knowledge, Cliven's still grazing without paying taxes or back taxes, walking around free talking about how Jesus and the Book of Mormon justify his crimes, and about how negros were better off as slaves, and whatnot.

So, while his sons may also be charged, it's my hope that they and Cliven are actually pursued by law enforcement, not just allowed to dodge court appearances and carry on breaking the law- same as it ever was.

You don't think they will face charges?

Probably, hopefully. As I said: 'while his sons may also be charged, it's my hope that they and Cliven are actually pursued by law enforcement, not just allowed to dodge court appearances and carry on breaking the law- same as it ever was.'





01-20-2016 02:32 PM
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Maggot Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

Eh, those guys don't bother me much there are more ruthless people living in Chicago dodging the system, slipping court and not paying their fines for less worthless causes than these jokers. They use the terrible boom stick too.






01-20-2016 02:36 PM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

I understand the views you've expressed Maggot.

If LEOs shoot and kill a lone non-criminal kid in a city park, because those LEOs didn't approach the scene correctly nor leave time to assess the situation, it's the kid's fault or his parents' fault. It's wrong to question those law enforcement officers' actions because they had no way of knowing that the city kid wasn't a criminal in possession of a real gun who might threaten their lives.

BUT, if a gang of rural anti-government criminals points loaded firearms at law enforcement officers and threaten to kill the LEOs if they try to do their jobs, meh. It's the right thing for the LEOs to assess and stand back, and no big deal if LE doesn't aggressively pursue those criminal jokesters after-the-fact.

Neither the kid nor the clowns nor the 'terrible boom stick' scare me, personally. We just see things very differently.





01-20-2016 03:03 PM
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Maggot Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-20-2016 03:03 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  I understand the views you've expressed Maggot.

If LEOs shoot and kill a lone non-criminal kid in a city park, because those LEOs didn't approach the scene correctly nor leave time to assess the situation, it's the kid's fault or his parents' fault. It's wrong to question those law enforcement officers' actions because they had no way of knowing that the city kid wasn't a criminal in possession of a real gun who might threaten their lives.

BUT, if a gang of rural anti-government criminals point loaded firearms at law enforcement officers and threaten to kill the LEOs if they try to do their jobs, meh. It's the right thing for the LEOs to assess and stand back, and no big deal if LE doesn't aggressively pursue those criminal jokesters after-the-fact.

Neither the kid nor the clowns nor the 'terrible boom stick' scare me, personally. We just see things very differently.

No you do not. A child getting shot in a park is much more different than people taking over a government outpost.
A bunch of gangbangers shooting a child in an apartment is not the same either. both use guns only one has shot the gun.
You understand your own understanding correct or not.






01-20-2016 03:15 PM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-20-2016 03:15 PM)Maggot Wrote:  No you do not. A child getting shot in a park is much more different than people taking over a government outpost.
A bunch of gangbangers shooting a child in an apartment is not the same either. both use guns only one has shot the gun.
You understand your own understanding correct or not.

What part of my restatement of the views you've posted was wrong?

I don't agree with your minimization of the militia's crimes and your characterization of them as "jokers". They're no better than other criminals committing the same types of crimes anywhere else, in my view.

And, those armed criminal militiamen certainly shouldn't be pursued less aggressively by LEOs than people (kids or otherwise) with undrawn weapons (real or otherwise) in open carry areas where there are no bystander lives endangered when the LEOs approach the scene - no matter what part of the country the encounter occurs. The 'assess and stand back' strategy should be applied equally in all such approaches -- unfortunately it's the opposite of what happened in the city park scenario, which you considered justified.

Anyway, I want rioters and looters in the city (Chicago or Cleveland or NYC...) arrested. I want city gangsters who steal and threaten people arrested. And, I want criminal gang members in the wilderness who steal and deface government property and threaten LEOs arrested too.

If you want to make an apples to apples comparison so that your introduction of Chicago into the equation applies, just put the group of armed protesters making demands of the government in Chicago. Put them in a pay-by-the-hour federal day care building where they're threatening to kill LEOs who try to evict them and stay as long as it takes to get what they want. Make them a group of disgruntled auto parts workers demanding the building be turned into a free city day care center so they can keep more of their incomes, a cause for which they're using media in attempt to recruit other armed protesters to join them and failing because the majority of working parents in and outside of Chicago disagree with their criminal methods.

I'd wanna see LE assess and stand back at the Chicago occupation if there were no bystander lives at risk upon their arrival. I'd wanna see the Chicago occupiers appropriately charged and have those charges aggressively pursued after eviction, even though I sympathize with the cause. If you would instead consider the Chicago occupiers 'jokers' like you do the criminal occupiers in Burns, then again we see things differently.





01-20-2016 05:42 PM
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