Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management
Author Message
Maggot Offline
Supermod
*****

Posts: 25,776
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #15
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

Like a real estate agent says "location,location,location" I don't believe what the ranchers are doing is right but what they are doing is only hurting themselves vs. hurting someone else. If they did not have some type of legitimate grievance I'm sure they would have been squashed by now. As it is no one has been hurt yet except someone's pride. Marching down main st. saying "kill the pigs" and taking over a park for weeks runs along the same lines as what these jokers are doing. I predict a negotiator goes in and takes them peacefully away and I'm sure they have been in contact with government representatives by now. But I could be wrong although I don't believe their cause is worth dying for and neither do they.






01-21-2016 06:54 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

HairOfTheDog Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 24,878
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #16
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

The legitimacy, or lack thereof, of their grievance has nothing to do with why LE hasn't squashed them Maggot. LE doesn't want a blood bath and doesn't want to give these guys the showdown they want (and inspire more violent confrontations with extremists). That's how I see it.

These guys look foolish because LE hasn't taken the bait and the militia's video releases show that at least some of them are just unstable anti-government types, probably with PTSD, searching for a cause. The Bundys seem desperate for armed bodies and will take what they can get. It's kind of sad, but still criminal and still dangerous. If you watched any of the Ritzheimer videos I posted in the "is this racism" thread, I think you could see how he and other such 'patriots' at the scene could easily go off. They look like jokes to me, but they're not jokers. More than one has said they're willing to kill or die at the scene, something which even other patriot militias have condemned.





01-21-2016 03:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

HairOfTheDog Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 24,878
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #17
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

In any event, you don't think they're hurting anyone Maggot. But, that's not how the people being hurt by them feel.

--The local community feels infringed upon and wants them to get out; luckily the Bundys have failed big time in attracting a large armed militia and turning the wildlife center into their national anti-government headquarters, which was one of their stated goals. That would have been an even more egregious infringement on the local community.

--The local native American tribe fears that parts of their history are being destroyed at the refuge and wants them to get out.

--The people who relish the wildlife center, which their taxes support, are being ripped off by the Bundy gang and don't appreciate it. They've led protests asking the Bundys and company to get out.

--LE is having to spend time and money monitoring the situation, at both the state and federal level, and have repeatedly asked the Bundys to vacate.

--Other militias seem to feel that they're being viewed as clowns by extension.

People are being hurt. But, I'm glad no one has been physically hurt and hope it stays that way.





01-21-2016 03:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

HairOfTheDog Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 24,878
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #18
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

Mounting Pressure on Feds to Take Action

[Image: kate-brown-491019476.jpg]
Exasperated by a tense situation that has caused fear among some southeastern Oregon residents since it began Jan. 2, ^ Gov. Kate Brown said at a news conference Wednesday that federal officials "must move quickly to end the occupation and hold all of the wrongdoers accountable."

The occupation has cost Oregon taxpayers nearly half a million dollars. "We'll be asking federal officials to reimburse the state for these costs," Brown said. Federal, state and local law enforcement officers have been sent to the remote area but so far have avoided doing anything that might provoke a confrontation.

[Image: image_asset_10724.jpg]
Harney County Judge ^ Steve Grasty has been at the forefront of efforts among locals to show Bundy and his followers they are not welcome. Grasty said Bundy — who is not from Oregon — should get the point that he and his followers need to go back to their home states and leave Harney County alone.

"It seems like he's out of touch with reality," Grasty told the AP from Burns. Grasty said he would like law enforcement to turn up the heat on Bundy and his fellow occupiers — perhaps isolate them by closing off roads leading to the refuge. "I hope they lock it down. People shouldn't be coming and going. Maybe it's time," he said.

[Image: lavoy-finicum-01102016.jpg]
The Bundy group's spokesman — ^ LaVoy Finicum — told Oregon Public Broadcasting on Wednesday they have "no plans to leave." "We are very strong, very firm. This facility will not go back to the federal government, ever," Finicum told OPB.


Source: http://tucson.com/news/national/oregon-g...ium=direct





01-21-2016 06:38 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

F.U. Offline
Mock Elder
***

Posts: 3,245
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #19
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

Sniff , sniff , sniff , I smell another Waco type situation brewing.






Beer drinking, gun toting, Bike riding,
womanizing, sex fiend, sexist, asshole !
Don't like it? Well than F.U !!!!!!!!!
01-21-2016 06:41 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

HairOfTheDog Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 24,878
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #20
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

I hope it doesn't come to that F.U. It's possible in this case that the militia can have all electricity, water, and comings and goings cut off and be driven out. That has not been attempted yet.

If Bundy militia members end up getting killed by themselves or LE, it will be way less sad to me than WACO -- it will be by their own orchestration. I get the sense that at least a couple of them are looking for a cause to martyr themselves over anyway.

In WACO the government tried to drive the cult out of their own home/compound. More than 50 adult members were willing (or forced?) to die and let their children die rather than leave the compound and their leader. The Branch Davidians weren't trying to provoke an armed conflict with LE when they were descended upon by the ATF, they were instead trying to stay off the radar.

The Oregon situation is different. The Bundy Bunch aren't in their own home. They're outsiders. They're not trying to hide from the government's view and avoid conflict, they're very publicly trying to provoke a stand-off with the government using criminal means and demanding ransom.

If any of the Bundy militia members have brought in their children from out of state to join the illegal occupation (thereby using them as shields/buffers to LE action), they're fucked up child abusers too. I hope they're not such low-lifes as to have done that.

Ammon Bundy should do the right thing and fold, his demands won't be met and he has very little support from the very people he claims to be championing. But, I don't know whether he has the courage to do that, nor whether he has much control over the bunch he's managed to wrangle up.





01-21-2016 07:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

Duchess Away
Administrator
******

Posts: 61,526
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #21
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-21-2016 06:38 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  People shouldn't be coming and going.


I knew that one of the men had been caught at the supermarket but I don't think I was aware that these people were coming and going at will or even that their visitors were allowed access to them. That's really fucked up if that's the case. It's bullshit and should never been allowed in the first place.






[Image: Zy3rKpW.png]
01-21-2016 07:22 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

HairOfTheDog Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 24,878
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #22
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-21-2016 07:22 PM)Duchess Wrote:  
(01-21-2016 06:38 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  People shouldn't be coming and going.
I knew that one of the men had been caught at the supermarket but I don't think I was aware that these people were coming and going at will or even that their visitors were allowed access to them. That's really fucked up if that's the case. It's bullshit and should never been allowed in the first place.

Oh yeah, they're coming and going without issue.

The Bundys are inviting patriots to join them; they can just drive on up and join the illegal occupation.

Yesterday, Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy, and Jon Ritzheimer showed up at the town meeting. The Sheriff and deputies were there. They just walked out and drove back to the wildlife center after the meeting.

I hope bloodshed can be avoided; but this is getting pretty fucking ridiculous. The community is put out, it's costing tax payers a fortune, the employees of the refuge center are not able to work, the militia is rifling through the Native American artifacts (on video) and saying they want to return them to the rightful owners in the tribe so they can be stored better somewhere else...

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/...mmon-bundy





01-21-2016 08:25 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

Duchess Away
Administrator
******

Posts: 61,526
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #23
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-21-2016 08:25 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  Yesterday, Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy, and Jon Ritzheimer showed up at the town meeting. The Sheriff and deputies were there. They just walked out and drove back to the wildlife center after the meeting.


That is incredible! It looks to me like they have made LE their bitches.






[Image: Zy3rKpW.png]
01-21-2016 08:38 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

sally Away
sally
**

Posts: 15,714
Joined: Dec 2008
Post: #24
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

Why couldn't they just arrest them at the town meeting?





01-21-2016 08:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

HairOfTheDog Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 24,878
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #25
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-21-2016 08:38 PM)Duchess Wrote:  
(01-21-2016 08:25 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  Yesterday, Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy, and Jon Ritzheimer showed up at the town meeting. The Sheriff and deputies were there. They just walked out and drove back to the wildlife center after the meeting.

That is incredible! It looks to me like they have made LE their bitches.

It does look like that, more so as time passes.

But, LE has let the Bundy militia make clowns of themselves by not taking the bait and treating them as a negligible non-threat.

When the occupiers appealed to the public for supplies, they were mostly sent dildos, lip gloss, glitter nail polish...

I know LE would rather have them leave willingly in defeat or humiliation, the question is how long will that take (if it's even a realistic possibility).

Finicum, who's been the Bundy media spokesperson of late, said yesterday that it's never gonna happen. I think it's time LE helps to make it happen. Ask them again to vacate. If they won't, start cutting off their access.





01-21-2016 08:52 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

HairOfTheDog Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 24,878
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #26
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-21-2016 08:43 PM)sally Wrote:  Why couldn't they just arrest them at the town meeting?

Judge Grasty asked the same thing. He said it would have been an ideal spot to do it.

Maybe LE was afraid of inflaming the militia members back at the wildlife center and what they might have done in retaliation. Maybe they were afraid the Bundys or their armed "security detail" would have resisted arrest and didn't want a shoot out in a public space. IDK.

I think the FBI is calling the shots and the local LE is just following the game plan. But, it's been 3 weeks now and the governor, the townspeople, other ranchers, the local tribe, and the judge all think it's time to change the rules.





01-21-2016 09:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

Cutz Offline
Mocker
**

Posts: 1,758
Joined: May 2014
Post: #27
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-21-2016 07:21 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  But, I don't know whether he has the courage to do that, nor whether he has much control over the bunch he's managed to wrangle up.

Agree. When you actually go Lord of the Flies, you don't want to turn from Ralph to Piggy. I'm sure he wonders if he decides to cave if his most hardline guys won't hurt him and take control.





01-22-2016 01:33 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

F.U. Offline
Mock Elder
***

Posts: 3,245
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #28
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-21-2016 07:21 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  I hope it doesn't come to that F.U. It's possible in this case that the militia can have all electricity, water, and comings and goings cut off and be driven out. That has not been attempted yet.

If Bundy militia members end up getting killed by themselves or LE, it will be way less sad to me than WACO -- it will be by their own orchestration. I get the sense that at least a couple of them are looking for a cause to martyr themselves over anyway.

In WACO the government tried to drive the cult out of their own home/compound. More than 50 adult members were willing (or forced?) to die and let their children die rather than leave the compound and their leader. The Branch Davidians weren't trying to provoke an armed conflict with LE when they were descended upon by the ATF, they were instead trying to stay off the radar.

The Oregon situation is different. The Bundy Bunch aren't in their own home. They're outsiders. They're not trying to hide from the government's view and avoid conflict, they're very publicly trying to provoke a stand-off with the government using criminal means and demanding ransom.

If any of the Bundy militia members have brought in their children from out of state to join the illegal occupation (thereby using them as shields/buffers to LE action), they're fucked up child abusers too. I hope they're not such low-lifes as to have done that.

Ammon Bundy should do the right thing and fold, his demands won't be met and he has very little support from the very people he claims to be championing. But, I don't know whether he has the courage to do that, nor whether he has much control over the bunch he's managed to wrangle up.

I wasn't thinking about the kids. I was thinking of the way the Gov. Leo , or who ever dealt with the situation.






Beer drinking, gun toting, Bike riding,
womanizing, sex fiend, sexist, asshole !
Don't like it? Well than F.U !!!!!!!!!
01-22-2016 01:42 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply Reply

Post Reply