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Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

The situation has been dealt with by local, state, and federal law enforcement completely opposite from how they dealt with WACO. LE in Oregon is standing all the way back, instead of surrounding and attempting to drive out by force the armed occupants as they did in Texas.

Except for the possibility of it ending with extremist and/or LEO deaths, which is what LE is trying to avoid, the occupation at the Oregon wildlife center has very little in common with the WACO situation.

Anyway, I'm glad authorities learned from the WACO outcome and have changed tactics when dealing with groups of armed extremists. If they say they're willing to kill or die rather than surrender, it should not be taken lightly. The hands-off approach by LE hasn't ended the occupation, but it has taken power away from the extremists and allowed them to show the public who they really are, to their detriment. That's been very effective for LE.

As a result, LE is now being asked and even demanded by the public to take action. In my opinion, LE has secured the green light to start moving to the right in their tactics in order to end the occupation, without later being accused of rushing in like a military force and acting too aggressively.

If the occupiers have gone so low as to bring children to the site, I think they'll be held in even lower regard by the local and general public, but they will probably have succeeded in limiting LE strategies to end the occupation. I hope the occupiers haven't pulled that ultimate pussy move, but it won't surprise me if they have.





01-22-2016 09:05 AM
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F.U. Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

All I am saying is I can smell the end turning out like Waco. Storm the place and kill em all. I am not comparing the situation to Waco, just the ending. Rat-a-tat-tat Rat-a-tat-tat Rat-a-tat-tat.






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01-22-2016 09:10 AM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

LE didn't storm the place and kill them all with rat-a-tat-tat in WACO, F.U.

LE surrounded the place and negotiated with Koresh, who allowed some Branch Davidians to leave early on. Then, Koresh changed directions and refused to negotiate a surrender, claiming he had a divine mission (something Ammon Bundy has also alluded to).

After that and knowing that children were being sexually abused at the WACO compound, LE tried to drive the members out with sleep deprivation tactics, which didn't work and probably only heightened their paranoia and made Koresh's "end of days" prophecies appear validated to the members who chose to stay in the compound.

WACO didn't end with a rat-a-tat-tat, it started with a rat-a-tat-tat by Davidian security members when the ATF went to raid the compound for alleged weapons violations on day 1 . It ended with a fire at the compound killing 76 members on day 51. There was a lot of a speculation that the government had started the fire, but later investigation (which is still contested by some) concluded that the fire was started by the Davidians who chose to end the conflict by committing mass suicide/murder.





01-22-2016 09:25 AM
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Duchess Away
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Post: #32
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management



I'm not getting what I demand so I would rather die. Wah. Wah. Wah. 34






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01-22-2016 09:27 AM
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F.U. Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

(01-22-2016 09:25 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:  LE didn't storm the place and kill them all with rat-a-tat-tat in WACO, F.U.

LE surrounded the place and negotiated with Koresh, who allowed some Branch Davidians to leave early on. Then, Koresh changed directions and refused to negotiate a surrender, claiming he had a divine mission (something Ammon Bundy has also alluded to).

After that and knowing that children were being sexually abused at the WACO compound, LE tried to drive the members out with sleep deprivation tactics, which didn't work and probably only heightened their paranoia and made Koresh's "end of days" prophecies appear validated to the members who chose to stay in the compound.

WACO didn't end with a rat-a-tat-tat, it started with a rat-a-tat-tat by Davidian security members when the ATF went to raid the compound for alleged weapons violations on day 1 . It ended with a fire at the compound killing 76 members on day 51. There was a lot of a speculation that the government had started the fire, but later investigation (which is still contested by some) concluded that the fire was started by the Davidians who chose to end the conflict by committing mass suicide/murder.

I watched it happen also HotD, I remember the tank poking holes in the walls. The Gov will get their way sooner or later. By bull horn or bazooka , they don't care.






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01-22-2016 09:30 AM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

I saw it too, F.U.

I saw the tank and wished that hadn't happened.

Nonetheless, WACO did not end with a rat-a-tat-tat by LE.





01-22-2016 09:37 AM
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Maggot Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

Ruby Ridge did.






01-22-2016 09:40 AM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

Yes, Ruby Ridge did start and end with rat-a-tat-tat.

And, it too was a case of a failed government LE attempt to raid a family on the family's own property in response to alleged weapons violations.

That is not similar to the Oregon occupation where armed extremists have illegally taken over other people's property and made public demands of the government, threatening never to leave and to kill or die if the government tries to evict them or doesn't give them what they want.

Anyway, the government doesn't want another outcome like either WACO or Ruby Ridge. I'm sure they don't want the Bundy bunch to light the refuge center on fire and kill themselves like at WACO. Likewise, they don't want to lose LEOs or militia members to rat-a-tat-tat stand-off like at Ruby Ridge.





01-22-2016 09:55 AM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

The FBI on Thursday defended its response to an armed group that has occupied an Oregon wildlife refuge for weeks, calling it "deliberate and measured" as it seeks a peaceful solution.

The statement by the FBI came a day after Oregon Governor Kate Brown called the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge "absolutely intolerable."

"The FBI recognizes that many in the community have questions about why we are here and our role in helping to end the occupation of the wildlife refuge," the FBI said Thursday.

"This occupation has caused tremendous disruption and hardship for the people of Harney County, and our response has been deliberate and measured as we seek a peaceful resolution," the FBI said.


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-...ge-n501611





01-22-2016 10:08 AM
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F.U. Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

I don't buy the hole, they started the fire themselves. I think the fire was started as a result of that tank ramming the building.






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01-22-2016 10:51 AM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

I didn't initially accept as fact that the Davidians had started the fire either, F.U. I waited to see the results of the investigation.

I believe the Davidians lit the fire when the government started getting more aggressive in their attempts to drive them out of the compound. That's what the facts indicate, but I don't expect that anti-government types will ever believe it, which is fine.

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberatley set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.) LINK: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...pten2.html

I do however fault the government for starting the conflict. The ATF miscalculated who would be at the compound when they went to serve the weapons-related search warrant and ended up losing LEOs and several Davidians in that initial conflict.

Also, the weapons that the Davidians were stockpiling were all legal. The search warrant was secured based on an agent's contention that the legally-acquired weapons had probably been modified to illegal sawed-offs and fully automatics. The later investigation produced evidence proving that the agent's suspicions were wrong.

I think government officials did in fact care about the Davidians and regretted deeply the deaths (aside from Koresh's). But, the government's tactics helped pushed Koresh into Jim Jones mode, in my opinion.

Anyway, it's good to see that authorities have learned from their miscalculations at Ruby Ridge and WACO.





01-22-2016 11:11 AM
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F.U. Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

It must be true, it says so on the internet. Plus our gov says so.

I still don't buy it. I think the fire was a result of the tank. Just because there were several fires at the same time dose not rule out that fact. I wouldn't put it past the gov to burn the place down in hopes of covering up as much of their botched attack on these people.
But I do look at it the same way you do on todays events. Hopefully they learned from their past screw ups [and not just learn a better way to cover their actions up] and don't make the same mistake again.






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01-22-2016 11:27 AM
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HairOfTheDog Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

Your "if it's on the internet, it must be true!" bit doesn't apply here, F.U.

What I posted isn't an internet blog opinion or unsourced internet claim. The results of the investigation are contained in official documents, summaries of which are available on the internet, in public broadcasts, in books...

The investigation did not bode favorably for the government in terms of how the conflict started and how it was (mis)managed. But, the government absolutely did not storm in and kill the Davidians with a rat-a-tat-tat -- that's not debatable. And, while I believe and accept the arson investigators' conclusions, it doesn't concern or bother me that you don't.





01-22-2016 11:42 AM
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F.U. Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

Official documents never lie. Cover ups never happen and the Gov is always honest.

Not gunna buy it, but it don't bother me that you do. To each their own.






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01-22-2016 12:09 PM
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