THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY

[Fry Guy]

Fair enough.

Just to clarify the Religious Right wanting to maintain their ability to practice their religion without censure was never for me the issue. The problem was when they dictated and tried to interfere with others whether it be attacks on video games, music, book burning and the like.

I believe people should generally be left alone and allowing one group to dictate to the next is generally a bad idea but worst still, once it has been deemed acceptable when one party has the power it will become justifiable when the opposing party has the power.

Iran was dishonest in what and where they showed UN inspectors according to reports through the Israeli government. Off memory plans that were quite detailed where smuggled out and forwarded to Israel.Of course, I can't prove the accuracy of either the report or the plans BUT I did not believe Iran would seriously entertain the notion of co-operation in any case and so it works for me.

I also agree about US needing to talk to those they can. Of course caveats abound and such but no one should think closing.communication is better. I cringe at some of Trumps gaffes and such BUT his policies regardless all seem to be heading in the right direction.

I honestly think people should come to the realisation with Trump that he won fairly and on his merits. He is unpopular with huge amounts of Americans but also popular with huge amounts of Americans. His personality, style and behaviour may be hard to deal with but his policies are not terrible and generally getting good results.
er

[HairOfTheDog]

I agree with several of your points FryGuy.

As for the Mueller investigation, there’s nothing to support the “witch hunt!” rhetoric and I very much want to learn more about the Russian election interference and why some Trump campaign staffers / advisers lied to investigators. Fair elections are very important to me.

The campaign advisers’/staffers’ guilty pleas will require them to testify, so we’ll learn more and hopefully be better prepared to defend against election interference in the future.

Anyway, I’m not among those who insist that Trump didn’t win fair and square because I haven’t seen evidence to support that contention. Likewise, I am not among those who insist that he didn’t have inappropriate or illegal assistance because it’s possible he did (either knowingly or unwittingly).

In any case,.....even if there’s evidence to prove Trump’s campaign had such assistance, I doubt it would be possible to determine whether it affected the election results (unless the evidence includes ballot changing). And, I suspect that most people who insist one way or the other won’t change their stances no matter what the investigation concludes.

[Duchess]

I very much want to learn more about the Russian election interference and why some Trump campaign staffers / advisers lied to investigators. Fair elections are very important to me.

According to what I've seen reported, that campaign met with the Russians 82 times and lied about every meeting. There is nothing wrong with talking to the Russians so why did everyone lie?

trump says he's going to start campaigning 6-7 times a week leading up to mid-terms. He was in Tampa last night and was screaming YOU NEED AN ID TO BUY GROCERIES. Ahahahaha. The audience behind him were all nodding their heads. 

[Fry Guy]

"the Russians" - which Russians? "Met" as in had a meeting in their honour, shook hands on an introduction at the end of an evening, visited the embassy? What do you mean? Do you mean Putin? Who do you mean? People who are Russian but are not affiliated with anything you are involved with?

What do you mean by "lied"?

See this is where things fall down.

We all know that we are unable to get 100% for every test we attempt even if taught facts and being exposed to ideas and such. We know that if we are robbed or assaulted or mugged that we are not able to accurately recall all aspects of who and what and when and how.

We all know that we are infallible and that when we get an answer wrong ion a test or a detail wrong ion a police report, we are not liars and are not "liars" when we omit or make a mistake, right?

FBI knows that too. They however apply a different standard. You know what that standard is too. They have the answers to something that was said or an occasion over the last few years that you met someone and they will entrap you. If you get one of these questions wrong or misinterpret what they are saying or you simply hold a different version in your mind they will say that you lied. There is no reasonable lack of recollection or different interpretation or anything like. If you do not get it 100% you lied and you are a liar.

I REALLY hope no one here is for a moment going to pretend this standard does not exist or that it means they lied to the FBI....right?

On a completely different note, what collusion with the Russian Government has been on the Trump side. I saw that Trump Junior talked with a lady lawyer who was Russian about Russian adoption and that she was association with Fusion GPS. I even understand he wanted information from her about Hillary. But I do see Joule holdings, Uranium One uranium transfers, half million dollars speeches funded by the Kremlin, DNC sponsored Russian propaganda via the Steele dossier.....and well I think there may have been collusion with Russian government and by a political party.

[HairOfTheDog]

I very much want to learn more about the Russian election interference and why some Trump campaign staffers / advisers lied to investigators. Fair elections are very important to me.

According to what I've seen reported, that campaign met with the Russians 82 times and lied about every meeting. There is nothing wrong with talking to the Russians so why did everyone lie?

Yeah, for months now, I've been thinking..........if Trump and company aren't guilty of intentional wrong-doing in relation to campaign election collusion with Russian agents (under the direction of the Kremlin, according to the evidence in the indictments against the 12 Russian individuals and multiple Russian companies).......they should stop acting so damn guilty.

Non-stop  lies, constant changes of narrative, leaking, publicly beating up on Sessions and the Justice Department for following the law instead of breaking it to shield Trump and his campaign advisers, unleashing the Giuliani shit show on the public, etc...  

Whether they're guilty or not, none of it is helpful to Trump and company legally nor in the minds of people who are waiting to see the evidence  before forming a personal verdict.  

I do believe that deflection and rhetoric helps Trump elicit even more unconditional loyalty  from the portion of his base who wouldn't care if he shot someone on 5^th Avenue though.  Maybe that's the goal?  If so, it doesn't help them a bit when it comes to the facts, evidence, and legal proceedings (so long as the Justice Department does its job and the separation of powers isn't dissolved).

[HairOfTheDog]

Former Campaign Director, Paul Manafort, went on trial for financial crimes and tax evasion yesterday.  He took $60 million from Russian organizations and individuals to promote the since-ousted Kremlin-backed Ukranian Prime Minister, didn't report the income, and then stashed the cash in various international accounts.  He's also accused of bank fraud and offering bankers positions in the Trump campaign and administration in exchange for money.

Those are the allegations and there appears to be a shitload of evidence to prove them.

Manafort was living very large and had spent it all by the time he took over the Trump campaign (for which he worked for free).  
Looks like Manafort's legal team is employing the ever-popular SODDI defense (some other dude did it).  The defense is contending that Manafort's long-term partner and Trump Administration adviser Rick Gates did it.  Gates, as you know, has pleaded guilty to the crimes for which he was charged and will testify against Manafort.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yesterday, it was reported that in the course of following the Manafort/Gates money trail, Mueller's team uncovered information that warranted placing at least three other Americans under investigation and referred them to New York state federal prosecutors several months back.

They haven't been charged with anything at this point, but that doesn't mean they won't be later if there's evidence to suggest illegality.

Those referrals include Democratic lobbyist Tony Podesta, lobbyist and ex-Minnesota GOP Rep. Vin Weber, and former Obama White House counsel Greg Craig. They reportedly worked with Manafort for a pro-Russian Ukranian non-profit and Mueller's team suspected that they failed to register as foreign lobbyists. https://www.vox.com/2018/7/31/17637426/r...greg-craig

[Fry Guy]

I think you have the wrong end of it Hair of the Dog.
IF he and his associates are not guilty of the Russian collusion narrative what is NOT acting guilty? If you say for a moment that they should pretend that the investigations into them are not unfair, politically motivation and expensive financially for them as when as an attempt of character assassination on them and their loved ones, then I disagree.
IF you say that hitting back and naysaying and venting your frustration and not cooperating with the people who are trying to smear you.....then I disagree that this is guilty behaviour but rather a righteously indignant response to a political hitjob.

So what in their behaviour could not be put down t this level of righteous anger,frustration and indignation? Let's remove the narrative and examine the actions.

As for Mannafort and co being dirty Washington lobbyists. Yes....these kind of scumbags are great for pushing a candidate. Podesta is another one (both of them). Scumbags. Should it have been a surprise to Trump that Mannafort was slimy? I would not think so. I think he did not care as long as he stayed within his lanes and did what he was supposed to do. He kept him around for a couple of months and got rid of him when he did what he could do for the campaign.

But Mueller is supposed to be investigating Russian collusion in the 2016 election not who is a scum sucking Lobbyist or Swamp Denizen. None of this relates to the 2016 election. I have no particular qualms about Mannafort, Podesta, Gates and the rest of them going down for their crimes. I am sure finding Washington degenerates is easy enough. Kick over a rock in Washington and shine a torch.

Sure check out the Trump Administration and I think he has. What about the Hillary connection? What about that Ukrainian embassy visit to get dirt on Trump? What about the Russian false intel supplied to Steele by the Russian Intelligence paid by the DNC? What about the Clinton Foundation pay to play scheme? What about Joule limited? What about Uranium One transfer of uranium assets and rights to Russia?

I mean come on Mueller. Get them all BUT look at both camps

[aussiefriend]

It's not a legitimate Presidency though is it? I love how the British diplomatically showed him he wasn't welcome there. When Her Majesty met Trump, she wore a brooch that Obama's gave her. No big State dinner for him at Buckingham Palace. Just the bare minimum. Can't blame them though when he has bragged he wanted to shag the future King's mother, Diana. What a pig of a man. What a fraud.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yeah, FryGuy, we’re gonna have to agree to disagree that lying, changing the narrative, discrediting the investigators and the Justice Department all the time, and constantly trying to sway public opinion regarding an ongoing criminal investigation = understandable presidential ‘righteous indignation’.

If the President was not involved in the Russian interference, simply letting the investigators do their jobs and being righteously indignant about interference in our elections would be more rational, professional and appropriate to me.

The scope of Mueller’s probe is Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election and any potential crimes that are uncovered during the course of that specific investigation. That’s what he’s doing.

Mueller’s scope does not include investigating everything and everyone swampy and old partisan conspiracy theories. There are Congressional powers and committees who can take up those types of unrelated issues if they see fit.

[Fry Guy]

I don't think that you are expecting him to behave like him. You are right we can agree to disagree. I do not think Bill Clinton or Ronald Regan or George Bush would have reacted like Trump reacts but Trump has been behaving like this since well before he was President and will do afterwards. that does not make him guilty. I think you probably know this. It sounds to me (and I could be wrong) that you think now he is President that he should act more like previous Presidents and with the gravitas of the role. He does not and will not. That is a reasonable position I think. He will never just let investigators go on with things he will hound them and everyone in the peripheral and when it all comes out that he was not colluding he will rub it in everyone's faces. Not Presidential but very him. That doesn't make him guilty either.

I am not for Mueller investigating "everything and everyone swampy and old partisan conspiracy theories" but I am very much for him ACTUALLY investigating ACTUAL collusion with the Russians to influence the 2016 election. Mannafort and Page and Flynn and Junior do not appear to within this scope from what has been put to them. He is simply trying to search for anything to charge them with regardless if it is without that agenda or not. He also seems to not focus on all parties but rather the trump campaign though there is no reason to do so and doubly so now the FISA warrant and dossier are discredited.

I do think if they are hiding money and laundering and such that they do probably need arresting and this goes for Mannafort and Gates and Podesta and such. I shed no tears and hope the book is thrown at them but I question the attention. I think there is a Hell of a lot of collusion to be found in the other camp and that seems to be skating as far as I can tell.

[aussiefriend]

HoTD, I feel like you ignore me on this subject in the past. Do I maybe need to not make a comment because I didn't vote and am not a citizen of the USA? I would understand someone's feeling that. It's on CNN all the time and on my local news here. It's in your face and hard to escape. Your POTUS is doing strange crap everyday. By the way, I first learned POTUS abbreviation here in Mock, I never knew that there was an abbreviation.

[HairOfTheDog]

HoTD, I feel like you ignore me on this subject in the past. Do I maybe need to not make a comment because I didn't vote and am not a citizen of the USA? I would understand someone's feeling that. It's on CNN all the time and on my local news here. It's in your face and hard to escape. Your POTUS is doing strange crap everyday. By the way, I first learned POTUS abbreviation here in Mock, I never knew that there was an abbreviation.

I'm not ignoring you aussie. 

I read all of your posts and know how you feel about Trump as a person.  I don't usually reply because it's subjective and you're just voicing your opinion in that regard, not spinning  and contradicting the facts or putting discussion points to me.

Anyway, it's good to see you.  Welcome back.

[aussiefriend]

Oh thanks HoTD. Isn't it funny the strong bond we have with one another? I feel genuine connection and friendship in here.

What I meant is, I don't live there in the US so I thought you felt maybe it doesn't matter or maybe I don't have the right to comment. I feel so sad and hurt for the amazing and brilliant US citizens. I feel they are being forced upon them something they didn't legitimately ask for. It's almost a kind of rape of the democracy.

Thanks for the welcome. I am getting on top of things. HoTD, can you tell me how to upload photos now. Has that changed?

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't think that you are expecting him to behave like him. You are right we can agree to disagree. I do not think Bill Clinton or Ronald Regan or George Bush would have reacted like Trump reacts but Trump has been behaving like this since well before he was President and will do afterwards. that does not make him guilty. I think you probably know this. It sounds to me (and I could be wrong) that you think now he is President that he should act more like previous Presidents and with the gravitas of the role. He does not and will not. That is a reasonable position I think. He will never just let investigators go on with things he will hound them and everyone in the peripheral and when it all comes out that he was not colluding he will rub it in everyone's faces. Not Presidential but very him. That doesn't make him guilty either.

Yeah, like I said, I'm not insisting that Trump's guilty of illegal activity in regards to Russian interference because I haven't seen all of the evidence regarding who was involved.  I clearly said that Trump is acting like a guilty person, in my opinion -- I agree with some of the Republican congresspersons who've essentially advised him against the same.

Every President has his own style and personality, of course, and I don't expect them to act the same in that regard.  

But, the Presidency is not a reality show, or at least it shouldn't be, in my opinion. The Presidency is not about giving Trump or anyone else a public forum to just be themselves, attack their opponents and defend/enrich their personal allies, disseminate false rhetoric, interfere in private business decisions and criminal investigations, etc.    

The President should perform his job and represent the American people, not focus constantly in public on his personal opinions and dramas and such. It's not a problem for me that you disagree and find it acceptable (or don't think it's even happening).  I'd feel the same no matter who was sitting in the White House and acting in that manner.

When it comes to policy, I agree with some of Trump's proposals/actions and disagree with more others.  And, I always hope he does what's best for the American people and the country -- not just what's best for him or what he thinks he can pull off by swaying people who say, 'that's just Trump being Trump, lol".   The U.S. President's decisions, words, and actions and how they affect our country and the world seriously matter to me. I don't  applaud the  Presidency becoming a place to turn for personal drama and entertainment.  I know some people do these days, and that's their right.

[aussiefriend]

HoTD, are you currently watching CNN? Trump is going to lose your mid terms elections, and now Trumps people are holding a press conference, so you can see when the Dems win, he is going to say the Russians meddled. Doesn't make sense and ridiculous. What is this freak show?

[HairOfTheDog]

I am not for Mueller investigating "everything and everyone swampy and old partisan conspiracy theories" but I am very much for him ACTUALLY investigating ACTUAL collusion with the Russians to influence the 2016 election. Mannafort and Page and Flynn and Junior do not appear to within this scope from what has been put to them. He is simply trying to search for anything to charge them with regardless if it is without that agenda or not. He also seems to not focus on all parties but rather the trump campaign though there is no reason to do so and doubly so now the FISA warrant and dossier are discredited.

Oh, that's different than what you originally posted.

In any case, as per Mueller's scope, Manafort's alleged financial crimes were uncovered during the Russia Interference investigation.  Since they weren't directly related to  Russia's interference in the election,  Mueller's team referred the matter to the appropriate state prosecutors for investigation.  Those prosecutors got probable cause and collected evidence of alleged crimes, charged him and now he's on trial. As it should be.

As with Manafort, Michael Cohen came up during Mueller's investigation and potential crimes were uncovered.  Since those crimes aren't directly related to Russia interference, Mueller's team referred them to state prosecutors.  He hasn't been charged with any crimes yet, but I think he surely will be.  We'll see.

Michael Flynn lied to federal investigators and congress about not talking with Russian officials about lifting sanctions prior to Trump taking office.  I don't know if there was any talk about quid pro quo during that discussion.  But, we know Flynn lied as he has pleaded guilty to lying.  And, President Trump contends that's why Flynn was ousted -- lying about Russian communications to investigators and VP Pence.  

Junior has been questioned, which to me was only common sense and unavoidable.  He met with a Kremlin-backed Russian lawyer who offered dirt on Hillary Clinton --  that obviously would likely come up in an investigation related to Russia interference.  The reason for that meeting has been undisputed since emails showed that his original 'it was only about adoption' story was false.  He said he forgot. We also know that Donald Trump lied when he said Junior came up with the adoption narrative because President Trump's attorney has since told us that it was Donald Trump who dictated that narrative.  However, Junior hasn't been charged with lying to investigators or violating federal election laws at this point.  Maybe he will and maybe he won't, depending on intent and evidence.  If he is charged, he'll be entitled to a fair trial just like anyone else.

The FISA warrants haven't been discredited, but I won’t argue the point.

[HairOfTheDog]

I do think if they are hiding money and laundering and such that they do probably need arresting and this goes for Mannafort and Gates and Podesta and such. I shed no tears and hope the book is thrown at them but I question the attention. I think there is a Hell of a lot of collusion to be found in the other camp and that seems to be skating as far as I can tell.

You have no way of telling whether anyone is skating on a hell of a lot of collusion, a tiny bit of collusion, or anything else......unless you have access to confidential investigation files. Mueller's team isn't leaking nor making public statements.

The media is reporting on the indictments after they're released to the public and the frequent and abundant rhetoric of President Trump and company. I'm not taking the latter as facts.

Anyway, whomever is credibly alleged to have committed crimes should be subject to the same criminal justice process as everyone else. No one should be above the law and it doesn't matter to me if they're Democrats or Republicans or Independents or none of the above -- on that we agree.

[HairOfTheDog]

Oh thanks HoTD. Isn't it funny the strong bond we have with one another? I feel genuine connection and friendship in here.

What I meant is, I don't live there in the US so I thought you felt maybe it doesn't matter or maybe I don't have the right to comment. I feel so sad and hurt for the amazing and brilliant US citizens. I feel they are being forced upon them something they didn't legitimately ask for. It's almost a kind of rape of the democracy.

Thanks for the welcome. I am getting on top of things. HoTD, can you tell me how to upload photos now. Has that changed?

I'm glad that got cleared up aussie.  I appreciate the views from outside of the U.S. and I'm not shy about weighing in on what's going down in other countries myself.

Uploading pics is basically the same.  Just copy the pic URL, paste it in to the image icon in "preview post" mode and it will be embedded in your post.

I'm at the office and don't watch CNN much when I'm home.  I usually read the news at various sites.  I hope the Dems take the House in the mid-terms and think they have a strong chance, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

[aussiefriend]

HoTD, At the end Sarah Sanders went off on CNN chief correspondent, but you get what they are doing, when they lose in November. Mind you, I thought they were going to lose in 2016, but it was rigged.