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SAUDI ARABIA & THE DISAPPEARANCE OF JOURNALIST JAMAL KHASHOGGI
#81
Substitute "Americans" for "Arabs".

(10-18-2018, 09:28 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: ...
As a result, Arabs are either uninformed or misinformed. They are unable to adequately address, much less publicly discuss, matters that affect the region and their day-to-day lives.

A state-run narrative dominates the public psyche, and while many do not believe it, a large majority of the population falls victim to this false narrative. Sadly, this situation is unlikely to change.
...
Make Orwell fiction again













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#82
Pompeo met with trump today and told him "we ought to give them a few more days" referring to the investigation into Jamal's murder. Jesus Christ. It's already being reported that one of the 15 men wanted for questioning has been killed in a car accident.
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#83
It's clear, to me, that much of the programming on FOX and AM talk radio is nothing more than governmental propaganda and state-run media.

In some rural areas of the U.S., there are few alternatives to those stations. In that regard, I can see how your comparison loosely applies Rootilda.

In my opinion though, most of the Americans who are engaged, yet uninformed or misinformed, have a choice in the matter. They simply choose to watch/read/listen-to propaganda media which confirms their own biases.

But, the U.S. is still great in terms of free press, no matter how much the current administration bashes journalists and independent news networks/outlets. Fortunately, I think most Americans are fiercly protective of the free press's critical role in democracy.
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#84
(10-18-2018, 11:05 AM)Duchess Wrote: Pompeo met with trump today and told him "we ought to give them a few more days" referring to the investigation into Jamal's murder. Jesus Christ. It's already being reported that one of the 15 men wanted for questioning has been killed in a car accident.

15 days.

The Saudis have been given time to clean up the consulate, float various denials and cover stories, meet with the U.S. Sec of State on their own ground...........and now they're being given more time to come up with a better story which incorporates the latest drip, drip, drip of evidence coming out of Turkey.  

This is a fucking farce, in my view.  I have a hard time believing any objective observers anywhere in the world don't see right through it.

I just read that Mnuchin has backed out of the Saudi Development conference after much deliberation by the administration.  That should have been an easy decision made last week, in my  opinion.
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#85
Senator Corker, who is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations committee said the trump administration has clamped down on sharing intelligence about the Saudis & Jamal and he further added that the intelligence briefings have been cancelled altogether. He went on to say "I can only surmise that probably the intel is not painting a pretty picture as it relates to Saudi Arabia." 
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#86
Senators Corker and Rubio seems seriously pissed about whatever happened to Khashoggi and determined to take serious action if the President refuses to do so.

Senator Lindsey Graham did an interview the other day and said he would no longer support MBS and that the crown prince has got to go!!

But, Lindsey's not only a flip-flopper, as was always the case. I'm convinced he lost his goddamned mind a few months back as well. So, I disregard any of his impassioned claims these days.
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#87
Just so you folks know, because you live in the U.S.A. and may have American morals ingrained on your psych but dealing with the Arabs today is like dealing with the Chicago mob back in the 30's. When you want to make a guy go back and do better you cut off his pinky finger and send him on his way, that way he looks at it all the time and remembers not to fuck up again. When they start cutting all the fingers off you know you're dead and they are doing it for fun. It's a very violent and backwards place in the middle east. I really don't think China, Russia or the U.S. can even imagine or expect not to be caught when they do shit like this. From the Arab side I know they just don't care and this guy is not the first Saudi citizen to be caught and toyed with. They are so fucked up that they could never join forces with each other because they would kill each other. The reality of it all is an old story that will take 100 years to fix. And if they ever united they would destroy everything that got in their way. I'm just glad they are still fighting each other. 
You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue mating dance.
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#88
And yet Trump embraces the Saudis, the North Koreans, and Putin and berates and offends our allies. Our allies who share our values. It's really hard to make sense of it.



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#89
This gumby was a Muslim Brotherhood operative, and an enemy of the Saudi Royal Family. I am sure they did what they have done for hundreds of years. 

The main problem is Americans are projecting their values onto a civilization (I us that term very loosely) that has no idea what those values are. The Saudis are the worlds largest sponsor of "radical" Islam. They are however instrumental in helping the US fight Iran, the worlds largest sponsor of terrorism. Terrorism is far more important to US interests.

Why is this story resonating here? Could it be the progressives again trying to put pressure on the Cheeto in chief? This gumby isn't even an American citizen. Where was the outrage when four American citizens were murdered in Libya?
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#90
I've never seen anything like this situation.  

It's not "just what the Saudis do", or "nothing to see here", or "libs overreacting" or any such shit.

Saudi Arabia, a long-standing U.S. ally, sometimes jails journalists. But, they don't kill them, unlike some other Arab countries.

One journalist has been murdered in Saudia Arabia since 1992.  He was Irish and was killed by al Qaeda.  https://cpj.org/data/killed/?status=Kill...up_by=year

So, the question, to me is........ why would the new young leader of Saudi Arabia, who claims to have facilitated a power coup in order to make Saudi Arabia more progressive, feel so emboldened as to have a U.S.-based Washington Post journalist brutally killed in a government building in Turkey?
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#91
I think it's quite reasonable to suspect that at least part of the answer to that question is a combination of unique factors:

President Trump's repeated declaration that the media is the enemy of the people
+
Kushner's close personal connection to MBS
+
President Trump's publicly expressed affinity for authoritarians/dictators and disrespect for more democratic leaders
+
The current administrations' focus on national autonomy and money over human/social issues
+
The Kindgom's possible personal financial leverage over Trump and Kushner
= "why the fuck not take out that pesky reformist dissident?", in MBS's thin-skinned inexperienced mind.  

I'm not blaming the U.S., Trump, or Kushner for the death of Khashoggi.  However, I do believe that the factors listed above may well have convinced the responsible party(s) that they could murder a journalist who had a large international following (and face little rebuke, if caught).

Anyway, it's a very big deal and I'm glad that principled people across the globe -- not limited to some Americans, and some Mock posters, and progressives, and other journalists -- are pushing back and speaking out against such a blatant assault on both free expression/speech and human rights.
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#92
"Hard-line Republicans and conservative commentators are mounting a whispering campaign against Jamal Khashoggi that is designed to protect President Trump from criticism of his handling of the dissident journalist’s alleged murder by operatives of Saudi Arabia — and support Trump’s continued aversion to a forceful response to the oil-rich desert kingdom."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/p...ssion=true
Make Orwell fiction again













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#93
(10-18-2018, 06:58 PM)Maggot Wrote: Just so you folks know, because you live in the U.S.A. and may have American morals ingrained on your psych but dealing with the Arabs today is like dealing with the Chicago mob back in the 30's. When you want to make a guy go back and do better you cut off his pinky finger and send him on his way, that way he looks at it all the time and remembers not to fuck up again. When they start cutting all the fingers off you know you're dead and they are doing it for fun. It's a very violent and backwards place in the middle east. I really don't think China, Russia or the U.S. can even imagine or expect not to be caught when they do shit like this. From the Arab side I know they just don't care and this guy is not the first Saudi citizen to be caught and toyed with. They are so fucked up that they could never join forces with each other because they would kill each other. The reality of it all is an old story that will take 100 years to fix. And if they ever united they would destroy everything that got in their way. I'm just glad they are still fighting each other. 

I think Lara Logan would agree.
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#94
Also from Rootilda's link:

While Khashoggi was once sympathetic to Islamist movements, he moved toward a more liberal, secular point of view, according to experts on the Middle East who have tracked his career. Khashoggi knew bin Laden in the 1980s and 1990s during the civil war in Afghanistan, but his interactions with bin Laden were as a journalist with a point of view who was working with a prized source.

Khashoggi made no effort to hide his past.  In fact, in his quest to affect positive change, he relied upon his past affiliations and beliefs to demonstrate his understanding of the issues and mindsets which allow some Arab leaders to repress their own citizens . 

Anyway,  it's terribly unoriginal to smear and/or blame the victim.  And, I don't think it's going to be effective except within a small right corner of the court of public opinion.
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#95
It worked for Kavanaugh.
Make Orwell fiction again













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#96
(10-19-2018, 12:00 AM)Rootilda Wrote: It worked for Kavanaugh.

I get your point Rootilda.

Fortunately, whether MBS sinks or swims isn't solely in the hands of a few dozen U.S. senators.

The physical evidence Turkey reportedly has in-hand will make it impossible for people in power to toss MBS a lifevest without anchoring themselves to him and the death of Jamal Khashoggi, I hope.  

And, the circumstantial evidence alone is very damning, prompting several Republican congresspersons to take a much stronger stand than the President and his administration allies.

So, I have some optimism that terrible and illegal behavior will not be rewarded in the Khashoggi case.
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#97
(10-18-2018, 10:33 PM)pyropappy Wrote: Where was the outrage when four American citizens were murdered in Libya?

The outrage was intense, widespread, and long-lasting.
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#98
(10-18-2018, 11:47 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: it's terribly unoriginal to smear and/or blame the victim.

It's sickening and speaks a great deal about those doing so.
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#99
(10-19-2018, 12:27 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:
(10-19-2018, 12:00 AM)Rootilda Wrote: It worked for Kavanaugh.

I get your point Rootilda.

Fortunately, whether MBS sinks or swims isn't solely in the hands of a few dozen U.S. senators.

The physical evidence Turkey reportedly has in-hand will make it impossible for people in power to toss MBS a lifevest without anchoring themselves to him and the death of Jamal Khashoggi, I hope.  

And, the circumstantial evidence alone is very damning, prompting several Republican congresspersons to take a much stronger stand than the President and his administration allies.

So, I have some optimism that terrible and illegal behavior will not be rewarded in the Khashoggi case.

I was thinking more of Trump and his legion of defenders. I doubt Handsome Prince Mass Murderer gives a dusty fart what the rest of the world thinks of him, he's got the world in his pocket right now.
Make Orwell fiction again













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Yeah, if MBS doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks of him, the hole in his pocket is going to swiftly continue widening until its completely empty.

Saudi Arabia desperately needs to diversify its economy so as not to be so reliant on fuel only.

MBS's whole strategy was to convince the world (and its investors) that he was committed to cleaning up corruption and leading his country in a more progressive direction in terms of civil liberties and human rights.

But, his actions are sending precisely the opposite message and have already discouraged investment and eroded goodwill with other countries.

Facilitating a power coup was was a bold and questionable way to start the reform process, but a lot of people gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Kidnapping the Prime Minister of Lebanon was outrageous, but there was very little outrage expressed (at least I didn't read much about it).

Ordering and/or covering up the assassination of a journalist because he was advocating for more and truer reform is hopefully the last straw for MBS, people do not seem willing to let it slide.
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