(01-07-2013, 09:36 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I don't care if she's 16 or 40, the prom queen or a worn-out hooker. If someone makes him/herself an easier target by not being in full control of their faculties or choosing a higher risk lifestyle, it's not surprising to me when that someone is violated by a predator. But, it makes no difference at all as to whether I consider that person a victim and the violent criminally-minded asshole who chose to exploit and prey on another person's vulnerability fully to blame.

So in the end who even really gives a fuck? You feel worse for the person that was raped while sober than the person that was raped while drunk, but in the end a rapist is still a rapist.

If you lay with dogs you get fleas. There was only one Mother Theresa and only one Ghandi.
Back in the day kids would duct tape a naked person to a field goal and that was it. WTF happened? Why so violent?

(01-07-2013, 09:57 PM)sally Wrote:

(01-07-2013, 09:36 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I don't care if she's 16 or 40, the prom queen or a worn-out hooker. If someone makes him/herself an easier target by not being in full control of their faculties or choosing a higher risk lifestyle, it's not surprising to me when that someone is violated by a predator. But, it makes no difference at all as to whether I consider that person a victim and the violent criminally-minded asshole who chose to exploit and prey on another person's vulnerability fully to blame.

You feel worse for the person that was raped while sober than the person that was raped while drunk, but in the end a rapist is still a rapist.

I feel equally bad for a drunk or sober rape victim. A rapist is still a rapist, whether they pick the easiest available targets or anyone else.

(01-07-2013, 10:03 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(01-07-2013, 09:57 PM)sally Wrote:

(01-07-2013, 09:36 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I don't care if she's 16 or 40, the prom queen or a worn-out hooker. If someone makes him/herself an easier target by not being in full control of their faculties or choosing a higher risk lifestyle, it's not surprising to me when that someone is violated by a predator. But, it makes no difference at all as to whether I consider that person a victim and the violent criminally-minded asshole who chose to exploit and prey on another person's vulnerability fully to blame.

You feel worse for the person that was raped while sober than the person that was raped while drunk, but in the end a rapist is still a rapist.

I feel equally bad for a drunk or sober rape victim. A rapist is still a rapist, whether they pick the easiest available targets or anyone else.

I agree rape is rape but earlier you seemed to agree with me that people hold some small accountability when they get wasted out of their minds.

(01-07-2013, 10:37 PM)username Wrote:

(01-07-2013, 10:03 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(01-07-2013, 09:57 PM)sally Wrote:

(01-07-2013, 09:36 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I don't care if she's 16 or 40, the prom queen or a worn-out hooker. If someone makes him/herself an easier target by not being in full control of their faculties or choosing a higher risk lifestyle, it's not surprising to me when that someone is violated by a predator. But, it makes no difference at all as to whether I consider that person a victim and the violent criminally-minded asshole who chose to exploit and prey on another person's vulnerability fully to blame.

You feel worse for the person that was raped while sober than the person that was raped while drunk, but in the end a rapist is still a rapist.

I feel equally bad for a drunk or sober rape victim. A rapist is still a rapist, whether they pick the easiest available targets or anyone else.

I agree rape is rape but earlier you seemed to agree with me that people hold some small accountability when they get wasted out of their minds.

Yeah, if she feels equally bad then what's the sense of the thread? Obviously if you get wasted you increase your chances of being a target. Personally I would probally sympathize more with a stupid teenager that got fucked up at a party than someone who chose to live that lifestyle. But in the end the person who did it is fucked up no matter what.

(01-07-2013, 10:37 PM)username Wrote:

(01-07-2013, 10:03 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(01-07-2013, 09:57 PM)sally Wrote:

(01-07-2013, 09:36 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I don't care if she's 16 or 40, the prom queen or a worn-out hooker. If someone makes him/herself an easier target by not being in full control of their faculties or choosing a higher risk lifestyle, it's not surprising to me when that someone is violated by a predator. But, it makes no difference at all as to whether I consider that person a victim and the violent criminally-minded asshole who chose to exploit and prey on another person's vulnerability fully to blame.

You feel worse for the person that was raped while sober than the person that was raped while drunk, but in the end a rapist is still a rapist.

I feel equally bad for a drunk or sober rape victim. A rapist is still a rapist, whether they pick the easiest available targets or anyone else.

I agree rape is rape but earlier you seemed to agree with me that people hold some small accountability when they get wasted out of their minds.

Yeah, I know that you're not suggesting that any rape is justified.

I do agree that people are accountable for the act of getting wasted out of their minds itself. Unfortunately, in choosing such foolish behavior in some environments people can make themselves the easiest targets for predators.

But, I don't agree that someone who is drunk or high or known to be sexually promiscuous or acting foolishly in some manner is accountable or to blame in any way for the actions of the criminals that prey upon them. That's all on the criminals who commit the crimes, just like it is when criminals prey upon sober people who haven't let their guards down, in my opinion.

Maybe that wasn't clear in my initial post.

(01-07-2013, 10:53 PM)sally Wrote: Yeah, if she feels equally bad then what's the sense of the thread? Obviously if you get wasted you increase your chances of being a target. Personally I would probally sympathize more with a stupid teenager that got fucked up at a party than someone who chose to live that lifestyle. But in the end the person who did it is fucked up no matter what.

I imagine that the point of user's thread was to get other people's thoughts as to whether certain victims are a little bit to blame - just like she stated in the OP.

So, now she knows ours and others.

What about the beautiful, desirable woman who is all over the man, leaving no doubt in his mind that he is about to get lucky, yet slaps his hands away when he attempts to unbutton her jeans, he proceeds to do it anyway. Does she deserve what she gets for leading him on?

Depends on age. I think a 16 year old does not have the maturity or judgement to know who is, or is not "asking for it". Most 16 year old boys, I think, see a girl smile at him, and they think she is asking for it..and wants him.
As for a girl...if this particular one was at all consious, I am not sure she was thinking more than "this is fun". I think neither she or the boys were thinking beyond the moment.

As for an adult female...if she knowingly puts herself into a situation where she can be taken advantage of, then to a point, she was "asking for it"....or at least was aware of what would happen.

A person that is being forced to have sex is never asking for it. "Asking for it" implies willingness, which is exactly what rape is NOT about. It is the excuse that people have used for ages to somehow justify rape, and it's bullshit.

If a man is piss-drunk, has a hot body, wears tight, sexy jeans and no shirt, and parties hard at the local pub, and I would wait for him to go to the bathroom to slam his head into the door, kick him in the balls, take a knife and slice him up, do you think I would find many judges who would agree that he was at fault, too, because he was behaving like a slut?

I can see how in some situations, a man might not instantly get that the woman doesn't want to go all the way despite seemingly showing all the signals, but that does never, ever excuse forcing himself on her. The second she says no, it's no.

The fact that too many women think it's fun to play around with a guy's libido is seriously fucked-up, and imo grown-ups have to teach their girls to not do it if they don't wanna get in trouble, and boys not to fall for it and accept a no at face value, no matter how much she smiles while saying it. That's teaching kids the basics of human nature.

But these are two separate issues. One is to know human nature and not poke a sleeping dog. The other is committing an act of violence, which only the one committing it is to blame for.

(01-08-2013, 04:37 PM)Ilyanna Wrote: If a man is piss-drunk...

See, I would blame him a tiny bit for that part. I just think you're not supposed to drink alcohol (or use any other drugs) to that extent. Not to say I haven't done it many, many times but if you drink yourself to the point where you've lost all sense of judgment or even the ability to say no, that's a problem.

The perpetrators of the crime are still guilty of the crime. No question. I just think that people are responsible for themselves and their alcohol consumption.

Put another way, if I were that girl and in fact no date rape drugs were involved, I would be thinking REALLY hard about the wisdom of having drank so much that night.

In 2004 (between marriages, but dating my soon-to-be-wife) I was at the bar with my buddy one night. I happened to sit down next to an attractive young lady. We talked for a half hour or so, and she left.

A couple of minutes after she left, another woman came over and sat down next to me. We started talking. She said that she and her girlfriend were going to Mexico the next day, and had rented a hotel room in Mpls for the night (they were from Up Nort).

After another half hour or so, I said I had to get going home. The look on her face was incredulous. She said, "You didn't know that I was planning on taking you back to my hotel room tonight?" I said, 'No, I didn't really pick up on that.' She finished with, "I was wasting my time with you when I could've been working on someone who'd go home with me.'

She was pissed. The only time that I've really been on the other side of the proverbial coin.

I certainly wasn't 'asking' for it with my actions.

I'm never in favor of giving a rapist the benefit of the doubt with the 'asking for it' explanation. It's total bullshit.

I said in another thread that once she says no & he takes it anyway, that's rape, however, I think there are times that people contribute to their own victimization through poor judgement, being impaired or general shit for brains, etc.

I don't like the word, victim, it's fine for others but I would never want it applied to me even if that's how it truly was. I find it demeaning in a sense.

(01-08-2013, 04:56 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: After another half hour or so, I said I had to get going home. The look on her face was incredulous. She said, "You didn't know that I was planning on taking you back to my hotel room tonight?" I said, 'No, I didn't really pick up on that.' She finished with, "I was wasting my time with you when I could've been working on someone who'd go home with me.'

She was pissed.

MS, consider yourself lucky. I don't know every woman in the world of course but those that I do wouldn't be pissed if the guy they were chatting up said he was leaving for home.

(01-08-2013, 05:10 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(01-08-2013, 04:56 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: After another half hour or so, I said I had to get going home. The look on her face was incredulous. She said, "You didn't know that I was planning on taking you back to my hotel room tonight?" I said, 'No, I didn't really pick up on that.' She finished with, "I was wasting my time with you when I could've been working on someone who'd go home with me.'

She was pissed.

MS, consider yourself lucky. I don't know every woman in the world of course but those that I do wouldn't be pissed if the guy they were chatting up said he was leaving for home.

She had an apparent mission to get laid.

(And, apparently, wasn't interested in her vibrator).

I was genuinely caught off-guard.

(01-08-2013, 05:17 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: She had an apparent mission to get laid.

...and what if it were something else? You didn't know her, her story could have been bs, she could have slit your throat. I think her reaction was unreasonable.

That's inspiration for a thread, MS.

(01-08-2013, 05:21 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(01-08-2013, 05:17 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: She had an apparent mission to get laid.

...and what if it were something else? You didn't know her, her story could have been bs, she could have slit your throat. I think her reaction was unreasonable.

That's inspiration for a thread, MS.

I never even thought of that.

What if I was meant to die that night?

An ol' horn-dog doesn't usually turn down an opportunity to bounce around in the sack.

Wow.

Some women are fucked in the head, MS, totally fricken bonkers & they look sane, don't ever forget that. A great rack doesn't preclude batshit crazy.

(01-08-2013, 05:31 PM)Duchess Wrote:

Some women are fucked in the head, MS, totally fricken bonkers & they look sane, don't ever forget that. A great rack doesn't preclude batshit crazy.

Have you been reading my mind again?

I know you like boobies, honey.