trump's farmers got caught in his stupid trade war so now he's going to give them $12 billion.

(07-24-2018, 01:29 PM)Duchess Wrote: trump's farmers got caught in his stupid trade war so now he's going to give them $12 billion.

He's going to promise them 12 billion dollars. Whether he delivers is the Great American crapshoot.

(07-24-2018, 05:13 PM)Clang McFly Wrote: He's going to promise them 12 billion dollars. Whether he delivers is the Great American crapshoot.

I stand corrected, you're absolutely right.

He was at the VFW today and told them, "Just remember, what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening".

So, he's going to borrow $12 billion from the Chinese in order to pay for the trade war with the Chinese? Surely I'm misunderstanding that.

That's what I like about Trump, he shoots high then compromises to get what he really wants. I'm impressed. 0% trade imbalance and 0% subsidy sounds freaking great. And that is what they are going to agree to.

Trump was in my hometown today. He had a little round table discussion at NICC in Peosta Ia. I stayed away myself , but watched it on the computer as well as listened to the County Sheriffs live audio from their cars and handheld radios. The live feed of the Sheriffs was really interesting. Because I know all the backroads I understand the exact route he was taking. I had several friends that attended, but they were attending to protest.

(07-26-2018, 01:31 PM)Duchess Wrote: So, he's going to borrow $12 billion from the Chinese in order to pay for the trade war with the Chinese? Surely I'm misunderstanding that.

Sounds about right. How's getting Mexicans to pay for your wall working out for you, Mr. Trump?

Actually we will be paying Mexicans to build our wall.

Thats great, they are really good masons.

I'm seeing it reported that trump has spent a 123 days golfing (a fifth of his term) at a cost to taxpayers of $72,181,957. That's millions, boys & girls. He still hasn't visited a war zone and I doubt that he will but his stupid fuckin' parade is being planned at a cost of millions more.

(07-26-2018, 08:40 PM)F.U. Wrote: I had several friends that attended, but they were attending to protest.

You're friends are so smart, honey.  

trump held his first national security meeting since taking office. The topic was election security & how the government intended to make them safer. The meeting lasted 30 minutes.

(07-27-2018, 12:48 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(07-26-2018, 08:40 PM)F.U. Wrote: I had several friends that attended, but they were attending to protest.

You're friends are so smart, honey.  

The nice part is that we can disagree and still be friends. I have seen a lot of people loose friends over this . What a shame.

(07-29-2018, 09:57 AM)F.U. Wrote:

(07-27-2018, 12:48 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(07-26-2018, 08:40 PM)F.U. Wrote: I had several friends that attended, but they were attending to protest.

You're friends are so smart, honey.  

The nice part is that we can disagree and still be friends. I have seen a lot of people loose friends over this . What a shame.

I don't get that either. People have opinions and that's that it's not that hard to do. 

That's normally how it is. These are not normal times. There is no spin to put on it that could possibly make it be even remotely normal.

They are not normal times because you idiots want everyone else to pay for everyone's shit and are a bunch of fucking hypocrites. You live in your little utopias and have no fucking idea how much our country is getting fucked up by illegal immigration. I will buy you a ticket out here so you can be in pretty much fucking Mexico.

Yes. See the big problem I see is people have become polarised.
I have always been a Liberal. Slightly Left of Centre. Not an Authoritarian or a "Progressive". Allow all arguments and the good ones will stand the scrutiny of opposition. Also to be open-minded to possibilities outside of your own experience. Unfortunately, this thinking was used as a gateway for the "progressives" to come in and push their rigid and nonsensical ideas and "other" those that did not. Then they proclaimed themselves Liberals and the Left bowed to them. Now some people who claim to be Liberal are for all intents and purposes Progressive. Maybe not as Socialist as Bernie or that new lady from New York But by the standards of the Left 5 years ago, absolutely Leftist NOT Liberal.
The Western World being led in the Americas by Obama and in Europe by Merkel was going nowhere good. All the Western countries fell in line. Media fell in line. Academia fell in line. Corporations fell into line. Slowly they started branching into culture and such too. No one could have stood up to that.

Then along came Trump and threw a hand grenade into that.

He is boorish, inarticulate and gives no fucks for decorum. He is rude, incendiary and refuses to observe protocols. There is no poise or grace in the man. But he is the right man for the exact situation here and now. Nothing more or less than him would have made a difference.

He IS making a difference too. The right people are angry with him and/or intimidated by him.
He is making differences believed impossible for the economy
Whilst everyone swore he would cause world war three with North Korea, how is that doing? US veteran remains being returned, hostages being returned, nuclear site deactivations.
NATO allies now helping pay to defend against Russia
Instead of sending blankets and socks to Ukraine like President Obama did when Russia annexed Crimea, Trump sent weapons to the Ukrainians to help them defend against Russia

Obviously Presidents come and go and there are a lot of checks and balances and such. Hell, who really knows what the state of the Senate or House will be post-Midterm elections. Or who will in 2020?

But either way I think there is a Hell of a lot to go down and a lot of it will not make Trump, but his opponents, look terrible.

I think history will be exceedingly kind to Trump. He will be seen as a flawed hero of sorts. Me? I just would like things pulling closer to the middle. I think I see what he does, rather than the lack of articulation of his words. He is given little credit because of his personality but his actions and achievements are certainly worthy. You CAN'T have one without the other. I am sure it would have been lovely to have had someone with Obama's articulation, poise, wit, timing, grace, manners and establishment support BUT then he achieved little except for killing Osama.

I agree about the polarization FryGuy. It was underway before Trump’s candidacy and he didn’t create it. However, he did help proliferate it with his intense ‘birther’ campaign and used polarizing rhetoric to win the Presidency.

Anyway, I hope you are right that Trump ultimately achieves some positive outcomes for our country. North Korea has made the same kinds of promises to former presidents and returned hostages after scaling down their nuclear threats for a period. If the Trump Administration actually succeeds in getting Kim to sign a formal agreement to destroy and stop producing most of its arsenal and allow inspections (the latter of which the Obama administration achieved with Iran before Trump destroyed it), Trump will definitely deserve credit.

I don’t agree that Obama achieved virtually nothing. He inherited wars, a terrible recession, and a promise to obstruct everything he attempted by the far right Republicans. Still, he managed to get the country out of the recession with positive tending jobs and economic numbers for several years before leaving office. He also deported more iillegal immigrants (focusing on criminals) than any President before him. He oversaw putting the brakes on Iran’s nuclear capabilities with verification, he cleared the way for gay people to marry, and he respected the separation of church and state. Obama did not move the country more towards non-secularism as I see Trump doing in order to court the religious right.

The far right hated Obama and the far left wasn’t fond of him either. But I think a lot of people in the middle recognize and appreciate his successes while also acknowledging his failures. I don’t know if Trump will be looked on favorably in history, but I think Obama will.

I honestly think that Obama's biggest positive is his manner and the way he presented himself was very Presidential. That is it embraced what people would view as becoming of a President. I honestly think he set a benchmark, moreso than JFK perhaps, before him.

Obama did not deport more illegal immigrants. It was faulty stats. He practiced catch and release. Obama did not put the brakes on Iran nuclear capabilities. They lied. But they were happy to get the billions he sent them and the easing of sanctions. I do not believe he had much respect for church and state HOWEVER you are 100% right about him paving the way for gay people to marry and YES it is a good thing and he does deserve credit for that. An important oversight.

Out of interest, how many times with other Presidencies were Korean War remains returned by North Korea and when did the two leaders last cross into the DMK? Out of interest I am genuinely interested to know. Is this something that normally happens or something a little more special and unusual?

As to the birther campaign, I was not a fan. I know there has been a lot of conspiracy theories that seem plausible. Maybe there is some truth in them? Maybe he was NOT born in Hawaii. But the thing is that without evidence to the contrary NO ONE should put it all on the line like that. So what if Hillary DID say it? Why should he have thrown in behind her? It quite a strategy isn't it? "Obama's opponent said he was not born in America and so on that basis and the fact that he seems to have grown up in Kenya and Indonesia, I am going to go all in".
Its fucking stupid.

You know I remember as a Liberal, mocking the Religious Right and finding myself in similar political company of the Liberals who would mock the Religious right and seek to deride and oppose their Authoritarian and attempts to reduce freedoms and stifle debate. The Progressives do exactly the same now but the Religious Right made a play at infringing into cultural spaces and ultimately failed. The Progressives are NOT failing and I think pose a bigger threat.

As I say I DO hope that the politic norm is pulled further to the right. Not that I have any desire for the Right to become the default political ideology but because I want the Left to become more Liberal again and pull closer to the middle and be more moderate. But I will be honest, if going over to the right is needed to drop the socialist imaginings and such, so be it. This would allow the Left to reinvent and rediscover and come out better for the experience

As I have got older I have become more pragmatic about politics. The is a place in the world for both ideologies, Liberal and Conservative. Both are needed and too much of either is not a good thing and like the share market, needs a correction. Completely dominating society will one or the other is poisonous in a healthy society.

We’ve discussed illegal immigration at length here many times and I’ve posted the data from official sources more than a few times. It pertains to deportations, not temporary detentions before release / deportation. The historically high number of deportations under Obama is what earned him the title of Deporter In Chief by his critics on the far left

All of the international inspectors confirmed that Iran was living up to its agreements under the nuclear deal, as did Trump’s own advisers who urged him not to withdraw.

If you have official data from verified sources that proves either of those false, I’ll take a look at it.

I’m not mocking the religious right. However, I do not want to see the separation of church and state eroded for political gain. I think it’s one of the key factors in a peaceful and diverse democracy.

And, I think the religious right deserves more credit than you give them — they have undoubtedly achieved victories, in my view. For example, private businesses are legally able to refuse service based on religious beliefs. There have been a record number of judgeship appointments under Trump, judgeships to younger religious conservatives across the country. Religious organizations have also maintained their tax exempt status on the billions of dollars of revenue they bring in. All of which was achieved legally and according to the rules of our political structure and I’m not suggesting otherwise.

I support Trump and company talking to adversaries like North Korea and Russia; done strategically and with clear goals. The politicians who insist the U.S. shouldn’t be talking and attempting diplomacy are wrong, in my opinion.

I don’t know about North Korea returning remains previously FryGuy. I’m on my phone in a motel in Southern California and getting ready to hit the road, so my ability to search and post is limited for now. In any case, if the remains are verified as those of American soldiers, it’s a good thing and an achievement for Trump. No argument there.