Looks Like We're Getting Closer...

[Julie]

I have seen that bill and I have read it. I am used ot reading documents like this. I see nothing about a 40% tax. Please cite a page / pages.

[IMaDick]

MF you fucking asshole, you talk about having respect for the founding fathers and documents and you think this shit is good?

OK, pay attention. I don't know what is in the signed bill so I can't say I think that shit is good.

you will never know everything thats in the bill moron thats the way it was passed you irrelivant fucker, why the hell would any american, and I mean any and all americans not call and say fuck no to a vote on bill of this magnatude
that we who it affects the most were not allowed to see?

any motherfucker who thinks that this shit can be good in any way shape or form deserves to live in a communist country.

Frank do yourself a favor and call your US Senator and ask him to explain the bill to you.

none of these fuckers can explain this shit because they don't know what they just voted for.

come on MF grow some balls give it a try and let us know what the senator tells you.

[The Antagonist]

TODAY ON CSPAN. I heard it this morning. I'm sorry, I cannot rewind my DVR to 7AM for you and play it back here.

Even if the tax winds up lower than 40% it does not matter. This bill is all wrong. They rushed it for a political win plain and simple. What they should have done is take their damn time.

But hey, if you think having the government think for you, manage your health for you and babysit your every move so be it.

[The Antagonist]

Frank's senator is Chuck Schumer - he calls that prick he'll lie through his teeth and tell him all the good things he pretends are going to happen with this bill.

[IMaDick]

I have seen that bill and I have read it. I am used ot reading documents like this. I see nothing about a 40% tax. Please cite a page / pages.

Julie you're a dumb fuck sheeple, the 40% tax is on private cadillac insurance policies.

well except those held by our representatives , they voted to exempt themselves from the requirements of this bill.

fucking morons at every turn, this country just got set back to 1700 AD we have given ourselves back to the control of the crown.

we have lost our country by failure to uphold and enforce our constitutional rights and our delcaration of independence from a tyranny.

[The Antagonist]

I have seen that bill and I have read it. I am used ot reading documents like this. I see nothing about a 40% tax. Please cite a page / pages.

Julie you're a dumb fuck sheeple, the 40% tax is on private cadillac insurance policies.

<snip>

Didn't I already explain this on page two post #25?





YES

[Julie]

No sir - I do not want the gov't thinking for me.

It's apparent that many people have not read the bill themsleves and are getting their information from litening to the radio and watching the television. Not many people can cite their problems with this bill by saying "on page 345, there is a section which says abc."

Here's an example of what I mean...There's an FB group which is against Healthcare Reform...What appears below is from an earlier version of the Bill when the hysteria was at its height-->

Complaint from fb group: Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

What I found:

At first, I did not understand what it says on page 29 in the pdf copy because I did not know what "cost sharing" is defined as. So....I looked under "General Definitions" and found this:

(4) Cost-sharing.--The term ``cost-sharing'' includes
deductibles, coinsurance, copayments, and similar charges but
does not include premiums or any network payment differential
for covered services or spending for non-covered services.[/size]

Ok - got it.

So I read page 29, lines 4-16 referred to in the statement above from the fb group:

(2) Annual limitation.--
(A) Annual limitation.--The cost-sharing incurred
under the essential benefits package with respect to an
individual (or family) for a year does not exceed the
applicable level specified in subparagraph (B).
(B) Applicable level.--The applicable level
specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is $5,000 for an
individual and $10,000 for a family. Such levels shall
be increased (rounded to the nearest $100) for each
subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in
the Consumer Price Index (United States city average)
applicable to such year.[/size]

This seems to be referring to the maximum out of pocket costs for covered services (not including premiums) for an individual ($5000) and a family ($10,000). That's a good thing. It means your insurance provider covers 100% of covered costs if you hit $5000 or your family hits $10,000. Example: You get into a terrible car accident and are required to stay in the hospital for months. You have an ⁸⁰⁄₂₀ plan...so you are responsible for 20% of the TOTAL costs which are now approaching 60,000....Under the Reform Bill, once your co-pays and deductibles hit $5,000 the insurance provider must for pay all other bills as they continue to accrue. Instead of your bills piling up to financially destroy you, you have $5000 of expense & that's it.


There are more examples of misstatements & fearmongering like this one...And, I would not be surprised if it's still going on.

Ant, you yourself even typed "SYBER read this bill". Well, here's my response: READ IT FOR YOURSELF.

I'm not saying I'm 100% on board with this bill...and I'll tell the truth and say why: I have EXCELLENT coverage & I'm afraid that I'll end up paying for "the less fortunate." That's my biggest freaken fear. [/b]The thing is - I can read & most Americans can too...yet we're not doing that. We're listening to other people and relying on them to read the document for us.

[The Antagonist]

My boyfriend has shitty private coverage and if we turn that to a family plan the deductible is only $5k - WAY less than what you state above for the govt plan. Is that your quotes, for the govt' plan? Because if it is, it sucks big time.

And if you're skeptical that you're not going to be paying for the "unfortunate" ones without, trust that you will be along with everyone else.

[Julie]

You didn't even read what I typed did you?

[IMaDick]

No sir - I do not want the gov't thinking for me.

It's apparent that many people have not read the bill themsleves and are getting their information from litening to the radio and watching the television. Not many people can cite their problems with this bill by saying "on page 345, there is a section which says abc."

Here's an example of what I mean...There's an FB group which is against Healthcare Reform...What appears below is from an earlier version of the Bill when the hysteria was at its height-->

Complaint from fb group: Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

What I found:

At first, I did not understand what it says on page 29 in the pdf copy because I did not know what "cost sharing" is defined as. So....I looked under "General Definitions" and found this:

(4) Cost-sharing.--The term ``cost-sharing'' includes
deductibles, coinsurance, copayments, and similar charges but
does not include premiums or any network payment differential
for covered services or spending for non-covered services.[/size]

Ok - got it.

So I read page 29, lines 4-16 referred to in the statement above from the fb group:

(2) Annual limitation.--
(A) Annual limitation.--The cost-sharing incurred
under the essential benefits package with respect to an
individual (or family) for a year does not exceed the
applicable level specified in subparagraph (B).
(B) Applicable level.--The applicable level
specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is $5,000 for an
individual and $10,000 for a family. Such levels shall
be increased (rounded to the nearest $100) for each
subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in
the Consumer Price Index (United States city average)
applicable to such year.[/size]

This seems to be referring to the maximum out of pocket costs for covered services (not including premiums) for an individual ($5000) and a family ($10,000). That's a good thing. It means your insurance provider covers 100% of covered costs if you hit $5000 or your family hits $10,000. Example: You get into a terrible car accident and are required to stay in the hospital for months. You have an ⁸⁰⁄₂₀ plan...so you are responsible for 20% of the TOTAL costs which are now approaching 60,000....Under the Reform Bill, once your co-pays and deductibles hit $5,000 the insurance provider must for pay all other bills as they continue to accrue. Instead of your bills piling up to financially destroy you, you have $5000 of expense & that's it.


There are more examples of misstatements & fearmongering like this one...And, I would not be surprised if it's still going on.

Ant, you yourself even typed "SYBER read this bill". Well, here's my response: READ IT FOR YOURSELF.

I'm not saying I'm 100% on board with this bill...and I'll tell the truth and say why: I have EXCELLENT coverage & I'm afraid that I'll end up paying for "the less fortunate." That's my biggest freaken fear. [/b]The thing is - I can read & most Americans can too...yet we're not doing that. We're listening to other people and relying on them to read the document for us.

which bill did you read , the senate or the house? you do know that the final bill that will be signed will be neither and it will be both.

get a fucking brain or borrow one from the back yard rock.

you can read what is out there all day long and never know what will actually be in the bill, do you get it yet?

obama himself is the one who I heard tell about the 40% tax on cadillac plans.

Does he know you believe him to be a radio talk show host or some idiot who does not understand the bill?

[Maggot]

No employer in their right mind would cover an ⁸⁰⁄₂₀ spread. When insurance companies are required to cover high risk individuals and people who otherwise would not be covered because they cannot afford the premiums because they do not and will not work, premiums WILL go up. If a company decides that they can only afford to cover 20% of the gross premium as a perk. Insurance companies will become un comprehensive.
Where in the bill does it say that insurance can be sold across State lines? Where does it say that it will be legal to have true competition? It does not. Only when the Government has an option will that be available, then it will be to late as the competition has become defunct. The Gov. option is still on the table and will be implemented after competition from insurance companies becomes non-profitable. Paving the way for a government monopoly.
This bill is another tax, you will see your taxable income go from 35% to 45% in the very near future. That does not include State tax for those unfortunate enough to have it.
If insurance companies have to work on a 15-20% margin they will not be very profitable and investers will surely get away from mutual funds , finding a more secure footing for better profits. Insurance companies will be to big to fail and we begin the cycle jerk again only next time the gov will take over insurance. And we all know how efficient they are.
Go ahead Julie........invest in insurance and mutual funds now when the shares are high, they will never be this high again. Can you say 3%? ::lol::
We are fucked and nobody will see it until they are getting only 40% from their paychecks from a weeks work. But hell by then we will be aclimated and it will seem normal. Just like England.

[Julie]

I'm confused as to how anyone perceives me to be a supporter of this bill when what I said was:

1) The biggest problem is that we don't know what the bill says.
2) I'm afraid that what's being voted on will mean I'll have to pay for other people's coverage.
3) People need to look into things for themselves instead of relying on media to read & interpret for them.

[Maggot]

If every person could pick and choose what procedure and which hospital would do the work, bypassing insurance protocol and saving thousands of dollars by getting a hernia operation at hospital A instead of the affiliated hospital B covered by an insurance plan only then will true competition drive down the actual cost of health care. It is amazing the difference in cost from one hospital to another the spread can be in the 5 digit numbers. The same procedure sometimes performed by the same doctor in a different hospital can be large. If people would get a discount by shopping around and going with the lowest bid for a procedure then it would be true health care reform. This farce is a smoke and mirrors slap in everyones face . Neither addressing the true reason health care is out of whack nor a cure.
I just wish more debate and fine tuning could be done before this is signed and then later getting the fine print. That is what really scares me.

[Maggot]

The real rotten thing about this is that all we can do is sit back and watch, laying our faith in the people we have voted in to do the right thing. I think that is what really scares most. There is nothing we can do we have all cast our votes.

[Julie]

Yes. excellent points.

I wish we couls all see exactly what they're voting on. I mean, it's too late because we voted them in already but there's something about doing things in "the light of day" which makes people behave a bit diferently.

Hey did anyone hear about a doctor in NYC who came up with the idea of allowing folks to pay an annual fee directly to his office and he'd give them basic care etc?

They jumped all over his ass. If all the docs did that, the Insurance companies would be shit out of luck.

[Julie]

Eeep! The Prez just emailed me

(I signed up on the website some time ago )

Julie --

Although it's Christmas Eve, I wanted to share some exciting news: The Senate just passed a historic health reform bill.

In all the back and forth, it's easy to lose sight of what this incredible breakthrough really means. But consider this: This Christmas, there are millions of Americans without health insurance who risk losing everything if they get sick.

There are mothers and fathers who wonder how they'll provide for their children because an illness has wiped out their savings. There are small business owners who worry that they'll have to lay off a long-time employee because the cost of insurance is rapidly rising.

If we finish the job, all this can change. We will have beaten back the special interests who have for so long perpetuated the status quo. We will have enacted the most important piece of social policy since the Social Security Act in the 1930s, and the most important health reform since Medicare in the 1960s.

In Decembers to come, millions more will have access to affordable coverage. Parents will have the security and stability of knowing their insurance can't be revoked at a moment's notice. And the skyrocketing costs plaguing our small businesses will be brought under control.

When you make calls, write letters, organize, this is the change you're making -- a better life for your family and for men and women in every state.

There is still more to do before I can sign reform into law -- a last round of negotiations and final votes in the Senate and the House -- and I'm counting on your help every step of the way. But for now, I hope that as you celebrate this holiday season, you remember that the work you are doing is making our union more perfect, one step at a time. For that, I am grateful to you.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays,

President Barack Obama

P.S. -- Organizing for America supporters are signing a note of appreciation to all the senators who have worked so hard to make this possible. I hope you'll join them:

http://my.barackobama.com/SenateLetter

[Maggot]

::lol::............great job hopefully it does pass......::lol::
Assume Joe is a healthy 25-year-old who has no health problems.

Assume Joe has not purchased health insurance because he is young, healthy, and considers himself invincible—and because he would rather spend his money on cars, clothes, concerts, iPhones, iPods, Cancun vacations, and eating at nice restaurants.

Assume Joe could buy a health insurance policy for $3,600 per year. (The policy’s price is not important; use another amount if you’d like.)

Assume “Obamacare” passes.

Assume Joe says, “Get lost, Obama. I’m not buying health insurance. I’m young and healthy and I’ll take my chances. Heck, I can always go to the emergency room if I have to.”

Assume the government enforces its mandatory insurance rule by levying a $1,000 fine on those who, like Joe, refuse to buy health insurance. (The amount of the fine is not important; use another amount if you’d like.)

On April 15, Joe files his 1040 tax form. Because he has no proof of health insurance, the federal government imposes a $1,000 fine for Joe’s failure to buy insurance.

Will Joe now buy health insurance? Of course not! Why should he? Clearly, it is less expensive for him to pay an annual fine of $1,000 than to buy an insurance policy that costs $3,600.

But what if, a year or two later, Joe learns he has a serious illness that needs expensive treatment and care? No problem… Joe trots down to the nearest health insurance company and purchases a health insurance policy. But doesn’t he have a pre-existing condition? Yes, but that doesn’t matter… because Obama has made it illegal for the insurance company to deny Joe coverage!

Millions of Americans will do the same thing Joe does. Those without insurance will not bother to get it. Why should they? They can do just as Joe did!

Not only that, millions of people who currently have insurance will cancel it, knowing that paying the fine is cheaper than paying for insurance, and knowing that they can always get a new policy if and when they later need it!

Of course, these practices will cause health insurance companies to go out of business, forcing millions of Americans into the “public option” which they are so strongly against. But that is precisely what Obama wants.

Hmmm, perhaps Obama isn’t an idiot after all… maybe he’s just an expert con artist.

****I kinda lean towards the latter*****::lol::

[Duchess]

Why do I have to be responsible for someone elses healthcare ?...In this game of life I play by the rules, I work for what I want & don't ask anything of anyone...I think if others "want", they should have to work to "get"...We don't work so others can "have", we work hard so we can have more...Does that make sense to anyone other than me ?...I suppose that sounds selfish but, I do give back to my community in more ways than one.

[Maggot]

Why do I have to be responsible for someone elses healthcare ?...In this game of life I play by the rules, I work for what I want & don't ask anything of anyone...I think if others "want", they should have to work to "get"...We don't work so others can "have", we work hard so we can have more...Does that make sense to anyone other than me ?...I suppose that sounds selfish but, I do give back to my community in more ways than one.

I am beginning to think that rules and laws are put there for people to try their best to get around them. I really do not think it matters so much to any Polititian what is really good for the working slob but to try and find ways to fleece them. Giving to the lazy and worthless slobs is better for the vote because they outnumber the working people. And it is the vote that matters more to them.

[SyberBitch]

Giving to the lazy and worthless slobs is better for the vote because they outnumber the working people. And it is the vote that matters more to them.

The problem with that way of thinking, is that it doesn't wash.

If that were true, right-wing politicians would also pander to low-income, unemployed masses.