Let's pretend Jesus is real - Printable Version

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Let's pretend Jesus is real - Donovan - 03-09-2018 02:32 PM

In this thread we will discuss the historical Yeshua aka Jesus, assuming for the sake of debate that he actually existed. For this purpose we will be addressing the actual man as he would have existed, in what context and under what constructions of that society, in order to support my original point that religion exists to keep the ruling classes in power and control the vast majority of the populace through threat and vague promise.

For the sake of distinction I will refer to this man as Yeshua, which is the name most historians actually ascribe to him. Participants may call him what they wish, I think we all know who we are talking about.

In defense of a historical Christ, as opposed to the hysterical white hippie we know today, I offer the brief mentions of both Tacitus and Josephus, non Christian contemporary figures who referred to a leader of a problematic cult who was killed by the Romans and who was called "the Christ."

These external references serve to validate that at some point closely corresponding with Biblical reference, a minor prophet/rabbi rose to prominence, led a select group of zealots who named themselves "christians", and was ultimately killed for reasons we will discuss later.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - Maggot - 03-09-2018 03:33 PM

Luke 18:9-14

“And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.”

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - Midwest Spy - 03-09-2018 04:11 PM

Dono, I appreciate you starting a thread to discuss this.

I’ve mentioned I’m no theologian and have only my own experiences to go on.

I wouldn’t try to push my beliefs on anyone, and if a person truly believes that there is no God and ‘religion’ is a bunch of malarkey, then so be it.

And, you and I can disagree about the fuller life aspect as well.

If living as Christ would want us to (serving the needy, helping the less fortunate, etc) is somehow a bad thing, then I’m a little confused.

Those that are self-serving and not putting others first cannot be leaving this world a better place than when they got here.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - Duchess - 03-09-2018 05:04 PM

I think I might be self serving.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - BigMark - 03-09-2018 06:41 PM

Pass a slice over here.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - Duchess - 03-09-2018 06:43 PM

hah Good one!

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - Donovan - 03-09-2018 11:23 PM

In the discussion of religion as an opiate designed to control large numbers of people, we must examine the historic context of ancient religions which form the basis for what we now call modern worship. The earliest religions were multi-deity affairs, where different Gods controlled all aspects of daily life, each demanding sacrifice and obedience at all times. Egyptian, Nordic, Indian Subcontinent, the Americas, even the ancient Greek and Roman societies followed the same basic heirarchy of god-families as rulers, with specially ordained human representatives having "elite" access to divine wisdom. Not coincidentally, these shamans/priests/Caesars/holy men were revered as powerful leaders, with tremendous influence over their fellows and all the benefits of leadership.

The hierarchy of Jeshua's time was no different. The Roman God's representative was Caesar. Thru him Rome ruled its Empire by "divine right" including the subjugated middle eastern lands. In those lands, the Jews were a marginalized, monotheistic subset with the wild notion that there was only one God in charge, and that he assigned his Rabbis to conduct all sorts of business transactions and dictate laws for the Hebrew people. Again, a very elite few with near limitless power in their own little sect. At the bottom of this religious caste system, Jeshua and his motley followers espoused an even more heretical idea: that ALL men had the same ability to talk directly to YHWH (god) and that each man in turn was the son of god. This not only stripped the clerics of their elite status, it also called Caesar's divine status into questions.

So in the context of the day, Yeshua was a bottom tier member of a subset of a subset of a subset of Roman society. Literally the bottom of the barrel. His ideas would have appealed to others of no status and would have seriously irritated those in power.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - Maggot - 03-09-2018 11:28 PM

Religion is the opium of the people.................and the curse of government.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - Donovan - 03-09-2018 11:48 PM

So we have a carefully crafted religious based society designed to keep a few in power and the rest subservient. And this lowly Rabbi starts making crazy assertions that all men are equal under God. Traditional narrative states the Jewish leaders were upset Yeshua counted himself equal to God, but in fact he was stating he, and his compatriots, were equal to the Jewish leaders. This is important for very material reasons we will discuss.

Jesus never called himself the son of God, but rather the Son of Man. And while some versions of the historical Yeshua present him as a calculated self promoter who deliberately set out to fulfill parts of an old prophecy about the descendents of David, many others believe the divinity of Jesus was a post-mortem construct of Paul, a late convert who seized power in the fledgling church after Jeshua's execution and solidified his claim using, among other things, a claim to divine right. More on him later.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - HairOfTheDog - 03-10-2018 12:50 AM

[Image: PF-2015-11-03_RLS_II-02.png]

In this country, organized religion is the opium of older people, way moreso than younger people.

For me, that's not at all a bad thing. It doesn't mean the younger generation is less moral. It doesn't mean the younger generation is less spiritual. It doesn't mean the younger generation is atheistic by default.

It means that the younger generation, for many reasons, is less inclined to be manipulated/controlled/defined by organizations and governments that use religion to maintain their own power and riches over the masses (including in the U.S.A.). In my opinion.

I don't have anything against sincerely religious people. I've seen religion do good for individuals and for society, when exercised with pure motives. I've posted as much several times over the years in the "Religious Arguing Here" thread.

However, I have zero hesitance to speak fact and truth to Christians (and judgmental devotees of other religions) who constantly preach upon and look down on people who don't subscribe to THEIR religious beliefs.

Those judgmental preachy peeps often attempt to dictate what others are allowed to say and do (despite the fact that they're often the biggest 'sinners' and hypocrites of all).

They're the same "true believers" who label those who don't subscribe to THEIR beliefs as as "smug" or "too smart for their own good", or "immoral atheists". Silly self-righteous bullshit.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - Duchess - 03-10-2018 06:43 AM

I've encountered many self professed Christian Conservatives over the years and the one thing they all have in common is that they are some of the crappiest, self serving, judgemental pieces of shit that have ever been my misfortune to encounter. Most of them are not loving, caring, selfless individuals, they just aren't. I don't like them, I don't trust them and I would never lift a finger to help them. They suck! Their God isn't my God.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - sally - 03-10-2018 01:22 PM

My belief is that Jesus was a mortal man just like the men who wrote the collection of stories in the bible. They weren't God's prophets who he spoke to though the clouds. And at what point did God stop talking to mankind anyway, after he got all his books written and several different religions formed from it? If the bible was God's holy word it wouldn't be full of inconsistencies, contradictions and just overall absurd. It's the kind of book that would be expected to be written by primitive humans in an effort to explain things they don't have answers to. And a tool to control and manipulate large numbers of people like Donovan said.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - Duchess - 03-10-2018 01:42 PM

(03-10-2018 01:22 PM)sally Wrote:  And at what point did God stop talking to mankind anyway

According to some people, and there are a lot of them, God speaks to them on the regular. Speaking only for myself, it's one thing if I talk to God but if I think he's talking back at me, that's something else altogether.

RE: Let's pretend Jesus is real - sally - 03-10-2018 01:46 PM

Yeah, today when people claim God talks to them we call them fucking crazy. But 3000 years ago it was for realz.