07-26-2012, 08:12 AM
"I disagree that the tape would leave the same marks as fingers wrapped around a neck, or a ligature."
I'm not saying they used their finger to wrap the tape, was simply saying it was possible. I also mentioned they could have used a belt (we don't know). I too seriously doubt they would tape her and un-tape her. There would have been used pieces of tape all over the place (which was never mentioned).
There is another possibility. There are times when a person has stopped breathing but still have a slow heart beat. In CPR instead of giving two breaths with 15 chest compressions, you give two "rescue breaths".
Again, I'm not saying that was Lisa's status, we don't know and never will. But it is possible and see that she never started breathing they could have very well assumed she was dead. A stretch yes, but then again these guys aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. They could have also checked for a pulse but at that point I'd think they were thinking "she's #%@&ing dead, what the #%@! do we do now?"
In either case, they had the bag pulled on tight enough to now allow any air to leak out, or leak in...that's pretty tight. Otherwise Lisa wouldn't have passed out because there would be new oxygen getting into the bag.
Again, all this assuming the snitch's account is true. If not...nevermind all I'm saying.
"They either would have had to have taped the bag to her neck after she was already dead -- and why would they?"
I think that's very obvious; they wanted to guarantee she didn't come back. Again, these guys aren't thinking like detectives after committing their first murders...they're just trying to quell any screw ups. You can hear that fear and panic in what was in Sam's phone calls getting Cam's brother to comb through all the dockets...he's once again desperately trying to make things air tight. I posted a super long post about this a few pages back...don't want to keep posting the same material so I'm trying to keep this abbreviated.
"There's also the problem of the blood. Sounds like blood was pooled inside Lisa's bag. As someone mentioned, dead people don't bleed, so she was alive when bleeding in the bag."
Yes, I posted that statement about dead people not able to bleed...same comment I mentioned above. All the pooling in the bag means is that she had a good amount of blood in her hair, etc. Being that she's dead and her head isn't moving, all that she bled before dying is going to drift to one side of the bag and "pool up". Pooled blood in the bag can mean she started bleeding after the bag was put on, or again, just from bleeding previously while she was being tortured or whatever it was that actually caused the wound.
"making Johnny watch -- taped her up first and killed her in front of him -- but then it's still really odd that the end of the tape roll is on her and not him. The last bit of tape went on her, not on Johnny."
Lisa was colder than Johnny indicating she died first. However, there is cardboard on the end of her tape meaning she was taped up last...sounds like it goes perfectly with the snitches story; Lisa died first, taped up last. Again, I believe they were paranoid and wanted to be certain she wouldn't come back.
As for what the snitch mean by "gave her air", there was no DNA on Lisa's lip or at least none that's been mentioned in court. I think all he means is take the bag off and she starts breathing again/wakes up.
Some friends of mine when we were in middle school tried that a few times to get "high" (I know, kids are complete idiots). Once the person passed out (or maybe they just nearly passed out) from lack of air, they took their hand off their mouth and they automatically started breathing again and "woke up feeling all fuzzy". Stupid. Very stupid, but again, 14 year old idiots.
"Then there's the whole sitting in chairs facing each other thing. When do they step on his head if he's in a chair? (Didn't the snitch say chairs? No mention of chairs at the crime scene, were there? they were on the floor)"
Could have been referring to couches, or literally chairs. The kitchen was right there, there were definitely chairs.
"So at the very least, I think the accidental death is super unlikely"
But that's the thing, accident or not is completely irrelevant. They murdered them; they died because someone else did something to them with intent to cause physical harm. Either way you look at it, Johnny's death was based on premeditated murder.
What I think is significant about the snitch's story is that is goes along side with some information that "wasn't previously known" (whatever that is).
If anything, Sam could have mentioned the accident thing to not make it look as bad but that makes no sense at all...you're confessing that you were there when one or your co-conspiritors deliberately killed Johnny. At that point you're still in just as much trouble. If Sam was just trying to "lighten up" the crime he would have said they were both killed accidentally.
What matters most is that it puts Sam and Cam there along with their DNA to physically confirm it. Then you have suspicious jail phone conversations that sounds like a couple guys trying to not "talk obvious" on getting Cam not to snitch, etc.
What worries me is that a lot of people now are getting strapped down by the small details and not focusing on the big picture...they were there, they participated. "Who pulled the trigger" (so to speak) would be great to know, but I'd settle for putting them all away for life via "conspiracy to commit murder".
Anyone remember the Gotti trial and the RICO cases they were working against them to bring everyone down? Just a thought.
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Why is the prosecution not laying out the whole detailed theory. "You came here at xx o'clock [which we know from the phone call]. You beat them up, tied them up, ransacked the house, looked for a safe, found the alarm system, decided to torture them. We know by xxx o'clock they were both dead. You left with $80 and a ring." Will we see it at closing?
I still don't believe that the coroner would contend they both died due to the tape and bag -- with that super tightly wrapped tape, so tight it cut off the blood in both, as a major factor -- if in fact Lisa had suffered from some kind of manual or ligature (belt, rope, wire, etc.) strangulation and THEN had been taped up. They would have mentioned the marks from all of those things, wouldn't they? She would have had telltale bruising if hands or ligatures were around her neck while alive, and that weird opposite of bruising (where blood pools) when dead.
I do know about 'the choking game' kids dangerously play. And I guess they could have held the bag on her head miraculously leaving no finger marks on her neck, finally deciding to off her by taping her up after they taped up Johnny. I simply don't believe they taped her up while they knew or even thought she was dead.
That whole "Lisa was colder" bit -- can you point me to a source? I can't find the coroner or anyone talking about it, though it was reported that the police *think* Lisa died first...or was it last. Sounded inconclusive, since they used the word *think*. Could be based on the snitch's account for all we know.
I'm just frustrated to not have heard the whole official theory of how it went down. So far it sounds more like "There's two dead kids, dead from tight tape and bags that cut off blood flow and air, and there's a cigarette butt near them with your dna on it, so we figure you killed them, perhaps because Lisa mentioned the house non-smoking rules that we've covered in depth during this trial."
I know they've covered more than that --being silly, really. But I guess I was expecting a bit more science to figure in, and so far I haven't heard much. Maybe time of death doesn't matter because 1) it makes the cops look bad if the crime was in progress when they first came, and the kids were alive or 2) because the perps have no alibi for thus and such a time. Maybe I am a victim of watching too many police/court dramas, maybe Toledo's coroner sucks, maybe they don't go to this sort of trouble for throwaway perps or victims (but you'd think Lisa would rate some care and attention), maybe the TOD is such a broad range of hours that it wouldn't have been useful. Johnny's in rigor mortis with his stiff as a board neck, but that can start to set in after 10 mins depending on temp. I dunno, am I asking too much to want to hear the whole story as the officials see it? I don't mind the speculation that she hit her head, blood dripped off her dead hair, etc. -- heck, I do it myself trying to picture the scene -- but I'd like to see the whole 'fact based' official theory end to end. Am I alone in that? Much less how you get from a cigarette butt to necessarily being there for or during the murders.