08-05-2012, 10:24 AM
(08-05-2012, 02:17 AM)Aberlin Wrote:(08-04-2012, 10:38 AM)Green Ribbon Wrote: 1. How come two not so bright (and one even classed as a retard!) perps managed not to leave any dna on either bodies in what was a nasty murder?
Could be a million reasons why and we won't know for sure until someones comes forward with the entire story, mentioning every detail. Obvious statement I know, but worth saying anyway
Even though we're not dealing with world class assassins here, I feel confident in saying all who were involved knew about finger prints, hair fibers, etc.
Before getting into Cam and Sam lets talk about the Unknown Female.
Nightowl made a great point about duct tape being difficult to open with gloves on. However, the DNA on the tape is the same Unknown Female DNA inside Johnny's pockets. So there's a clue.
In her case, here's some possible scenarios:
1. She took off her gloves twice (once for the tape, once for going through Johnny's pocket...both tasks difficult to do with gloves on).
2. She took her gloves off once for taping Johnny and went through his pocket immediately afterwards
3. She was wearing either surgical or thin/cheap gloves that got ripped in a small place during the struggle or while opening the duct tape
4. She never had gloves on to begin with (signifying either a lack of planning or implying she was not supposed to be a "hands on enforcer/participant"...I'll explain later, but I don't put much stock into this theory)
5. The DNA might not be from skin but rather saliva from biting off the tape (this doesn't explain the DNA in Johnny's pocket)
6. DNA on the tape could be from hair (this also doesn't explain the DNA in Johnny's pocket)
Point 5 is my favorite theory personally because if a second person had to come restrain Johnny, its safe to assume he was putting up an intense fight. Not too hard to assume she had one arm wrapped around Johnny's legs and the other spooling the tape around his feet. Perhaps with all the squirming it seemed easier to continue to hold him down and use her teeth break loose the duct tape. In addition, sometimes duct tape is a pain in the ass to rip, so when you're in a hurry you use your teeth (ask anyone how works with duct tape regularly).
Of course this theory isn't without its failings because I don't think this girl started licking the inside of Johnny's pocket.
The problem with the term "DNA" is that it can encompass more than one thing (skin, hair, saliva, etc) and we're lacking full disclosure about these samples.
The reason I put so much emphasis on this girl is because I believe this was a planned robbery effort. However, if you agree this was a planned effort then you also have to acknowledge collaboration. With collaboration, there's a certain level of consistency; if one wears gloves, all will, if one covers their face, all will, etc. I seriously doubt someone would come along seeing others with gloves thinking they're safe touching things with out them.
With collaboration there's varying levels of participation (which is key). I doubt they all went in there just winging it and seeing who grabs who first. Sure, I think there was some on-the-spot improvising but all in all when you bring that many people with you, each has a specific reason for being there.
Keeping those scenarios in mind remember that:
1. DNA was found on the cig butt but not fingerprints (Sam and Cam were wearing gloves...or at least when they went outside)
2. Sam and Cam both have very short hair (less likely to find hair fibers)
3. It was winter (people wear long sleeves and the likes that aids in covering skin/hair)
If Sam and Cam were masked, that can further explain the lack of hair-based DNA. As for the girl, longer hair has more probability of falling out even with a mask on.
If the DNA on the tape was saliva, then there is a pattern here; criminals aware of fingerprint evidence, composite sketches (maybe), and hair, but not thinking of saliva. If this is true, why bother taking the cig butt with you? Why not just bite off the tape?
There might not be any other DNA samples of Sam and Cam inside the house simply because they were just reinforcements; there to step in if someone got loose, etc.
However, I believe they all had some sort of hands on effort and the lack of evidence against them is because they were careful in every regard but overlooked DNA transfers from saliva. As far as the girl, maybe she was in a panicked state and stopped thinking because it all got out of hand so fast.
Lastly, you could be looking at total luck here. People have shot themselves and somehow left no fingerprints on the gun they used. Just mentioning that to show stranger things have happened.
Sorry for the triple post in advance - Lady Cop and Duchess. If it is frowned upon here then please let me know, I just didn't want to reply to everyone who answered me in a massive post. Also as some of the responses are quite detailed, I would have probably forgotten loads of stuff i wanted to say if I did it in one.
Aberlin
I think you have pretty much got every potential scenario here.
Like you, I think they were forensically aware to a certain extent. Now with all the crime tv shows, they could pick up the basics and still be not too bright!
I like your theory 5 too. The possible thought I had there is if she bit and handled/tore the tape, she could possibly have had the adhesive on her fingers and IF she then went through Johnny's pockets after, the adhesive stuck in his pocket and took some of her skins cells/and or sweat with it. I could be totally wrong here, but I just thought it could be possible that they had two different types of samples eg. Saliva and skin cells.
I can see everything you suggest as being possible.
The only slight difference I have.....and it is a big IF....is the point you made about them covering their faces....but, this possibility relies on taking what Tiffany Williams stated that Johnny said on the phone was true.....and let's face it...It's a big if!
If what TW stated what JC said to her on the phone is to be believed, I would have thought that he would have freaked out more on the phone if they had turned up masked up, if it had been me in his position, if masked guys had turned up at my house I'd have been freaking out to my friend on the phone and telling them to ring the cops.
But, given that he might have had a stash of drugs in Lisa's house, I can accept that he may not have wanted to get the cops involved, or he was just too shocked to say anything to Tiff or of course she lied about what was said.
Now, I have known a few druggies in my time and I years ago knew a couple of very, very small time dealers. One of these dealers was robbed and he and his wife were roughed up by people they knew of (but did not know) who didn't bother to cover their faces cause they knew there was now way in hell the dealer could go to the cops and report what had happened. Which could also explain why Johnny didn't say more to Tiff on the phone.
I have gone off on a bit of a tangent here, but I do think like you that their heads were covered, irrespective of whether or not they were masked up (which is a tiny detail in the greater scheme of the whole crime).
You guys at Mock ought to write a book on this case when it is finally closed. Your knowledge and analysis of this case is so indepth.
