(01-04-2012, 01:35 AM)JsMom Wrote:

(01-03-2012, 11:50 PM)sally Wrote:

(01-03-2012, 01:19 AM)JsMom Wrote: Honestly I do thinnk all children no matter what should be in the same classrooms. JMO As far as behavior problems...

So you're saying my well mannered children should be in the same class as a bunch of socially inept nutcases doped up on Ritalin and Adderall because their crappy parents can't control them any other way? Well I happen to think so too, it prepares them for the real world.

No I worded it wrong. I was meaning that childrem without problems sho_ld be in reg. class, kids with behavioral prooblems should be in behavioral classes and kids with learning disabilities in resource classes and autistic kids in special ed. I would not want my child disrupting any classroom! I was rushing and wordered it wrong.

I just generally disagree.

I doubt many kids really need to be kept out of regular classes. Of course some do but in my day we were all in the same class. We were expected to conform and behave. Believe me this was pretty difficult for me because I had a little aspergers.

Special classes are fine but disruptive children should be expelled and most kids probably should be in regular classes. Obviously classes geared toward the capabilities of each child are preferable to "regular classes" though.

(01-06-2012, 11:12 PM)cladking Wrote: Obviously classes geared toward the capabilities of each child are preferable to "regular classes" though.

I see nothing wrong with leveling classes. It's just a fact. Take the brainiacs and let them proceed at a faster pace, those in the middle can do their thing and those that are struggling should have their own class so they can get the help they need and proceed at a slower pace.

No child left behind is bullshit.

I have a friend and one of her kids is doing just ok in school. She's FINE with it. There are other choices. Plumbers, electricians, delivering the damn mail... Give those kids the best education that you can but give them vocational education opportunities too.

(01-06-2012, 11:20 PM)username Wrote: I see nothing wrong with leveling classes. It's just a fact. Take the brainiacs and let them proceed at a faster pace, those in the middle can do their thing and those that are struggling should have their own class so they can get the help they need and proceed at a slower pace.

No child left behind is bullshit.

I have a friend and one of her kids is doing just ok in school. She's FINE with it. There are other choices. Plumbers, electricians, delivering the damn mail... Give those kids the best education that you can but give them vocational education opportunities too.

There are so many things they could be doing but they're stuck in a time warp and are politically correct. It's not the 19^th century any longer. Farmers don't need the kids to help with the damn crops. We have to pay the bonds on the schools 365 days and they run the airconditioner all summer anyway so all year school should exist; four semesters, pick three.

Dividing kids by age was done because there were only a few teachers. Instead they should be divided by their own progress. Instead of twelve grades there should be at least 48 in each subject. Material must be mastered before they are moved up to the next grade. You aren't going to get calculus if geometry escaped you so why move them up.

Every kid should get out of school with a basic knowledge of almost everything. A high school diploma should be a kid can think his way out of a paper bag rather than he can spell "paper bag" if given enough tries or he can remember to put the heavy things at the bottom of paper bags.

We don't keep accurate records of how many people actually graduate in this country and how many don't. Nobody really has any idea. People move around, states fudge the numbers, the feds just make stuff up.

I would be ok with free post-secondary education. Let the kids decide what they want to learn after they learn the basic core knowledge they need to be an informed and contributing citizen. Problem is, we have a generation that doesn't care if they can read or not. Half of the kids we graduate have never read a book and still don't know their effen times tables. They are clever for finding ways around that, but they only screwed themselves. They will live in poverty because they won't understand when they are getting cheated. Contracts are full of that writing and math stuff.

My oldest son has adhd, but I choose not to medicate him. We've tried medications before and he doesn't like the way they make him feel. He knows he is expected to sit down, shut up, pay attention and conduct himself like a gentleman, or there will be consequences. I wont accept shitty grades or shitty behavior. He's smart as a whip and he knows it. I want a's and b's and if I don't get them, there's hell to pay. I speak to his teachers regularly and while they say at times he's easily distractable, its not a huge problem. He was just moved in
to a few advanced classes and they keep him occupied. A few years ago when we lived in florida, they put him in a class full of speds because of his adhd. He was bored out of his mind and got the worst grades of his life due to being so bored and not paying attention. We moved the next year and the new school, going on what his old school had done, they put him in a class of speds. After 3 months we had a conference where they told
me he was obviously more advanced and theyd be moving him the next day. Having adhd shouldnt pigeon hole a child. Since then his grades have skyrocketed. I think theres a ceratin stigma associated with being in "special ed". Hes much happier. My youngest routinely gets honor roll and has since grade 1. Its just a fact of life around here that you work hard and you do what needs to be done or I'll be all over you like white on rice. He got a d in science once. His life sucked so bad for the next school quarter, he's never gotten anything less than a b since then.

I've seen figures that fewer than 30% of boys in the inner city graduate high school (they're out robbing banks with their mom in some cases). Only about 80% of the girls graduate.

But this is only a smallpart of the story because what earns a diploma today was deplorable 100 years ago. Unless a child is self motivated (or who has parents who insist) he will not get an education comparable tothe past. College is little better really and you can buy a degree from the finest schools.

I'd be surprised if 3% of people today are getting as good an education as in the past and almost allof these individuals are in the top of their classes. Even among these few one gets the impression they missed a few critical days of school. I had a neurologist ask me how to spell aspergers. What was he doing that day? Home sick? How do you treat patients if you don't know the possible conditions. What was he planning do do, google it before my next appointment. I can use google.

We've had two generations from a failed educational system and we are going to pay a very heavy price for at least a couple generations. And this assumes we ever fix it.

You cannot depend on the school system today to teach very well, their hands are bound by a ton of rules and regulations. You have to suppliment with good parenting, common sense, and home study also.

(01-07-2012, 08:52 PM)cladking Wrote: I've seen figures that fewer than 30% of boys in the inner city graduate high school (they're out robbing banks with their mom in some cases). Only about 80% of the girls graduate.

But this is only a smallpart of the story because what earns a diploma today was deplorable 100 years ago. Unless a child is self motivated (or who has parents who insist) he will not get an education comparable tothe past. College is little better really and you can buy a degree from the finest schools.

I'd be surprised if 3% of people today are getting as good an education as in the past and almost allof these individuals are in the top of their classes. Even among these few one gets the impression they missed a few critical days of school. I had a neurologist ask me how to spell aspergers. What was he doing that day? Home sick? How do you treat patients if you don't know the possible conditions. What was he planning do do, google it before my next appointment. I can use google.

We've had two generations from a failed educational system and we are going to pay a very heavy price for at least a couple generations. And this assumes we ever fix it.

I don't quite get what you're saying, Clad. I think the standards have gone up and up and up. I know for a fact that my kids are taking tougher courses than me at the same age. Gone are woodworking and home ec classes, now they're taking Algebra 1 in 8^th grade.

I think in the past, there was a survival of the fittest and we weren't (as a society) so concerned about those children left behind. They dropped out, went on to vocational schools, worked at their parents farms or what have you. Natural selection is gone; now every kid is supposed to master Algebra 1 in 8^th grade and the schools are penalized if they can't bring everyone up to the "standards".

Not to mention the additional pressures of community service hours etc.

I agree that some kids can buy (or "sports") their way in to success but...I don't think the standards have gotten easier. I do think there's a drag down effect created by NCLB though.

There's no doubt in my mind that my kids are doing much more advanced work than I did at those grades.

It depends on definitions to some extent and there has been some improvement since it bottomed out in the early-'90's or so. Certainly they're getting more advanced course work but so far as I know they continually made the SAT easier every year until quite recently. I might be incorrect but my understanding is that minimum standards for graduating high school are little higher than ten years ago when they bottomed out.

Perhaps I'm behind the times but even if the good schools really have improved (and I doubt it) the inner city schools are so lacking as to be laughable. In Indiana there has been improvement in at least most inner city schools because we have Bennet and Daniels who aren't pulling punches in education. I hear tell that the Indiana schools are no longer run by the children and the teachers don't lock themselves in the teachers lounge any longer. But this is still a far cry from the days that most kids got a decent education and graduated.

As far as I'mconcerned the school board should be run out of town on a rail anywhere there isn't an 80% graduation rate. The LA school board has time to cry about other states enforcing laws but has one of the worst graduation rates in the country. Action needs to be taken immediately and even Indiana is moving too slowly in my opinion.

Schools teach whoever shows up, clad. That is the problem. If the community sends decent kids to school, they get a decent education. The latter is also true. Back in my time, kids had to behave. After so many times in trouble, they were sent to an alternative school. They don't do that now unless kids get caught dealing drugs. Other than that, everything is allowed. You would be shocked if you knew what goes on and what teachers have to deal with every single day. Freedom Writers was a good movie, but it was just a movie. Same with Stand And Deliver. If there is no discipline, there is no educating kids who don't know how to behave.

Even if you do get kids to sit down, you CANNOT close gaps in learning past late elementary school (5^th grade). The kids who are behind stay behind. If you want to find the problem, you can't look at high schools. You need to look at elementary schools who send kids on that can't read or write or add or subtract or multiply or divide. Those are the big skills. Without those, everything else is in vain.

True, I am going by the high-quality suburban school system we are in, not a city school ...

(01-07-2012, 09:31 PM)Middle Finger Wrote: There's no doubt in my mind that my kids are doing much more advanced work than I did at those grades.

Just tell them they need to do their own homework and you won't look like such a dummy.

Is the education system broken or is society broken or are both the same as they have always been and we just noticed they weren't very good?

The Feds need to stay out of education. They can't even balance a budget, so they need to STFU.

Parents need to be involved in education AT HOME. Don't try to run the schools like you run your flaccid spouse. Just help your own kids and things will be fine. Every school has two or three "bad" teachers. Most of the people who work in schools really like kids and really are trying to help them. Don't be so suspicious of their motives. They don't get paid a ton of money, so they must like what they do.

All kids ARE NOT equal. The huge divides can be found among racial groups (yep, it's true, especially for black males) and groups with different socioeconomic status. Most higher-income area schools are doing great. Over 94% of the kids are passing. But they are failing NCLB because they have to show a 4% increase every year. How do you get a 4% increase when 98% of the kids are passing after the first NCLB year? Stupid Feds.

If you are poor, you are damning your child if you don't make an extra effort at home to make sure they are learning. They don't believe in the American Dream because your life sucks. They don't care if they finish school because your life sucks. They are just thinking about how they can get the hell away from you.

It's true, children are learning things earlier and earlier. My oldest is in 8^th grade this year and started with Algebra I, and was just moved to Algebra II. I never even had to take Algebra. Both of my children had to take a year of Spanish last year, I took that in high school, as an elective. My youngest is in fourth grade and comes home with geometry and easily 2-3 hours of homework every night. He learned multiplication tables in the third grade. My oldest has 90 minute classes.

(01-07-2012, 09:03 PM)Maggot Wrote: You cannot depend on the school system today to teach very well, their hands are bound by a ton of rules and regulations. You have to suppliment with good parenting, common sense, and home study also.

Right on!! good solid advice there.

(01-09-2012, 08:05 PM)NightOwl Wrote:

(01-07-2012, 09:03 PM)Maggot Wrote: You cannot depend on the school system today to teach very well, their hands are bound by a ton of rules and regulations. You have to suppliment with good parenting, common sense, and home study also.

Right on!! good solid advice there.

Schools are compensating by tossing 2 hrs of homework at the kids. I think its because they get nothing done all day or for some reason they can make the good ones work harder for the same score. They get a bunch more homework today.

That's true. Homework is supposed to be for practice only (or to finish something you started in class). They don't even grade the homework here, which is crazy, but they penalize the kids who don't do it. I wouldn't do it if nobody graded it. Fuck that. My little one has it finished by I get to the After School Program, so I don't even have to mess with it. They should just set up practice sites for the kids who need it and leave the other kids alone (unless it is a meaningful project like Science Fair).

My friend called me today who still works for the school system with a story about a kid who has been in trouble over 20 times already (only halfway through the school year) who beat the hell out of a poor kid with Asperger's. She said she has complained about his threatening behavior at least 50 times and all they did was change his schedule. I hope the other parent sues the fuck out of them for letting a hoodlum stay in school. I'm glad I don't have to deal with that anymore. My friend is on all kinds of nerve pills because it is so hard working where she works.

Home work was not a rule when I was in school, most of the work was done in class, I think it was so the teacher could actually spend individual time with us while we did the work.

(01-09-2012, 09:02 PM)IMaDick Wrote: Home work was not a rule when I was in school, most of the work was done in class, I think it was so the teacher could actually spend individual time with us while we did the work.

Yep. That is the point. Or at least grade the damn homework if you are going to assign it.