(05-23-2012, 02:30 PM)ramseycat Wrote: I don't have a law. I just don't think the can justify it. There is so much puclic outcry about this whole situation and this organization against them and then that organization against the other one. If he is allowed to keep him permit and word gets out? There is going to be a scene. I can't imagine Z would even want to have a permit anymore. If killing Trayvon has been so traumatic for him and he is so devastated by what he has done, I would think he would never want to touch another gun.

Bullshit, if he is aquitted he will keep his ticket. It is his civil and legal right issued to him by the state and it would require Legal Action against him to remove it, thats why we have a constitution, so even assholes are protected. I think this guy is guilty, but he may walk, his chances are better than even

Yeah, it would be akin to taking a driver's license away from someone who was found NOT guilty of a driving offense.


Since Ramsey works in insurance, I thought that dumbed down analogy might be helpful.

(05-23-2012, 02:07 PM)Sterling Wrote:

(05-23-2012, 02:00 PM)Disciple Wrote: Re: Z's CCP, just wait and see.

Yes. I understand it will be a "wait and see" process. However, you stated it as a certainty. I'm asking YOU on what grounds his CCP will be revoked. If convicted, it's almost a given. If he walks; what then? As to the rioters, it's just generic pissed-off people you are referencing, right? Nothing specific to this shooting, huh?

Inappropriately carrying a firearm while on Neighborhood Watch, contrary to his NW training.

Refusing to follow instructions from police and following M while carrying a firearm.

Acting in a manner that provoked a confrontation (no matter who threw the first punch) with an unarmed, law abiding citizen who had every right to be where he was while carrying a concealed weapon.

Causing the death of said unarmed citizen with a CC firearm.

I don't live in Fl. but I DO have a CCP.

How about you?

Were you told, as I was, that a CCP is not a right but a PRIVILEGE?

We aren't talking about the right to own or bear arms.

We aren't talking about rifles or long guns.

We aren't even talking about an openly carried handgun.

We're talking about the license to carry a concealed handgun in public. Like cops, private detectives, etc.

Entirely different matter.

Were you told as I was that you need to exercise that license responsibly or is would be taken away?

As for the riots, I'm just making a prediction, not justifying the behavior.

Been there. Seen it before.

Just sayin'

(05-23-2012, 04:11 PM)Disciple Wrote: Refusing to follow instructions from police and following M while carrying a firearm.

I don't live in Fl. but I DO have a CCP.

How about you?

911 operator instructions are "suggestions". A police officer did not issue instructions not to follow.

I didn't realize that the only way to invoke a self-defense shooting in Florida was if the other party was also in possession of a weapon. Must have missed that. Thanks for the "heads-up" with that little quirk. When you get a moment, if you'll post a link to the statute specifying this "weapon on weapon" requirement, it would be helpful.

I reside in the Grand Canyon State. CCP? Ha! Surely you jest? My favorite armory in Flagstaff is a combo gun and liquor store. "I'm here for the Walther and a liter of single malt." Yes. I have a CCP.

I have no compassion for people who riot. Whatever the reason. Fuck 'em.

(05-23-2012, 04:30 PM)Sterling Wrote:

(05-23-2012, 04:11 PM)Disciple Wrote: Refusing to follow instructions from police and following M while carrying a firearm.

I don't live in Fl. but I DO have a CCP.

How about you?

911 operator instructions are "suggestions". A police officer did not issue instructions not to follow.

I didn't realize that the only way to invoke a self-defense shooting in Florida was if the other party was also in possession of a weapon. Must have missed that. Thanks for the "heads-up" with that little quirk. When you get a moment, if you'll post a link to the statute specifying this "weapon on weapon" requirement, it would be helpful.

I reside in the Grand Canyon State. CCP? Ha! Surely you jest? My favorite armory in Flagstaff is a combo gun and liquor store. "I'm here for the Walther and a liter of single malt." Yes. I have a CCP.

I have no compassion for people who riot. Whatever the reason. Fuck 'em.

You HAVE a CCP?

Then why do you post such ignorant shit?

An innocent unarmed teenager died of a gunshot wound.

Z fucked up.

And he's going to lose his CCP for it.

Deal with it.

(05-23-2012, 04:41 PM)Disciple Wrote: You HAVE a CCP?

Then why do you post such ignorant shit?

An innocent unarmed teenager died of a gunshot wound.

Z fucked up.

And he's going to lose his CCP for it.

Deal with it.

Yes. I have a CCP. I live in Arizona. We have very liberal gun laws. I have no idea what the laws are in Florida. Ignorant shit? I've asked you for the statutes to support your statements. So far, nothing. Maybe you missed the post from several days ago when I absolutely agreed that Z fucked up. Why would I give a flying fuck if he keeps or loses his CCP? With your obvious anger and preconceived outcome of future events, I suggest you prepare yourself for the fact he just might be keeping his CCP.

**Inappropriately carrying a firearm while on Neighborhood Watch, contrary to his NW training. Where did you come up with this? The Police report stated and there was a picture of it, he had the gun in the holster when the Police arrived.

Refusing to follow instructions from police and following M while carrying a firearm. A non-emergency telephone call was made, they are operators they are in no way shape or form a police officer.

Acting in a manner that provoked a confrontation (no matter who threw the first punch) with an unarmed, law abiding citizen who had every right to be where he was while carrying a concealed weapon. haha Law abiding citizen, was that a joke? We are still talking about the person who was arrested for drugs, had drugs in his system, had a bag full of jewelry & a screwdriver concealed and who assaulted a school bus driver….this is the same law abiding citizen your talking about? haha And I would say that it does matter who threw the first punch, with the law it could make or break the case for self defense.

(05-23-2012, 04:41 PM)Disciple Wrote:

(05-23-2012, 04:30 PM)Sterling Wrote:

(05-23-2012, 04:11 PM)Disciple Wrote: Refusing to follow instructions from police and following M while carrying a firearm.

I don't live in Fl. but I DO have a CCP.

How about you?

911 operator instructions are "suggestions". A police officer did not issue instructions not to follow.

I didn't realize that the only way to invoke a self-defense shooting in Florida was if the other party was also in possession of a weapon. Must have missed that. Thanks for the "heads-up" with that little quirk. When you get a moment, if you'll post a link to the statute specifying this "weapon on weapon" requirement, it would be helpful.

I reside in the Grand Canyon State. CCP? Ha! Surely you jest? My favorite armory in Flagstaff is a combo gun and liquor store. "I'm here for the Walther and a liter of single malt." Yes. I have a CCP.

I have no compassion for people who riot. Whatever the reason. Fuck 'em.

You HAVE a CCP?

Then why do you post such ignorant shit?

An innocent unarmed teenager died of a gunshot wound.

Z fucked up.

And he's going to lose his CCP for it.

Deal with it.

I live in Florida AND have a CCP
this kid was far from innocent and unarmed. He was over 6 feet and 200 lbs. Most likely scenario was he threw the first punch and got shot while wailing on Z once he knocked him down.
Z did fuck up in my opinion by instigating the whole thing, But the law is probably not going to prove that. Z may walk and if he does he will probably keep his ticket

Ly: **Inappropriately carrying a firearm while on Neighborhood Watch, contrary to his NW training. Where did you come up with this? The Police report stated and there was a picture of it, he had the gun in the holster when the Police arrived.


that's not the point. he was not supposed to be carrying in his capacity as NW. he had no "license to kill" as though he were a sworn LEO.

(05-23-2012, 05:37 PM)Lady Cop Wrote: Ly: **Inappropriately carrying a firearm while on Neighborhood Watch, contrary to his NW training. Where did you come up with this? The Police report stated and there was a picture of it, he had the gun in the holster when the Police arrived.


that's not the point. he was not supposed to be carrying in his capacity as NW.

I thought it was stated he was just driving to the store, and since it is legal for him to carry he had it on him. That was my understanding.

(05-23-2012, 04:50 PM)Sterling Wrote:

(05-23-2012, 04:41 PM)Disciple Wrote: You HAVE a CCP?

Then why do you post such ignorant shit?

An innocent unarmed teenager died of a gunshot wound.

Z fucked up.

And he's going to lose his CCP for it.

Deal with it.

Yes. I have a CCP. I live in Arizona. We have very liberal gun laws. I have no idea what the laws are in Florida. Ignorant shit? I've asked you for the statutes to support your statements. So far, nothing. Maybe you missed the post from several days ago when I absolutely agreed that Z fucked up. Why would I give a flying fuck if he keeps or loses his CCP? With your obvious anger and preconceived outcome of future events, I suggest you prepare yourself for the fact he just might be keeping his CCP.

Yes, ignorant shit. If you post that people have a RIGHT to a CCP or try to use RIGHT and PRIVILEGE as though they meant the same thing, you'd better believe I'm going to call you on it.

If you don't give a fuck about whether or not he keeps his license, why are you beating a dead horse? Even if I had the slightest interest in trying to prove (impossible) to you or convince you (not going to waste my time - you have your position, I have mine) that he will lose his CCP, I'm not going to bother looking for statutes bcause I strongly suspect that at a hearing the matter is left to the discretion of the judge. There might be case law, but I'm betting npo statute.

I've seen and know a number of people who have lost them.

I believe that fucking up with a concealed carry firearm, resulting in the death of an innocent kid is enough for anyone to lose his/her license. I've known it to happen to people who merely threaten other people - no weapon involved.

You seem to think that if there is no conviction, he will keep his CCP. Where do you get the idea a conviction is required?

Look, sport. I stated an opinion that it is NOT a foregone conclusion that his CCP will be revoked. It was an opinion. You, on the other hand, seem to need some sort of bizarre validation that your posts are spot on. I don't care if he keeps or loses his CCP. YOU DO! I'm sorry you hang with or know idiots who lose their CCP. That's something I don't think I'd mention. As to why do I think a conviction is required in this case to have his CCP revoked, I've previously stated:

1.) I am only familiar with AZ's liberal gun laws

2.) I have no idea and (upon request) have not seen Florida's statutes regarding self defense or CCP, therefore I AM APPLYING THE LAWS OF MY STATE GOVERNING MY RIGHT AND RESPONSIBILITY TO CARRY.

additionally

3.) I never posted ". . . that people have a RIGHT to a CCP or try to use RIGHT and PRIVILEGE as though they meant the same thing . . . " as you claim. You are mistaken and confused. If I did, share the post number.

4.) Get over yourself. If you want to kick my virtual ass ("I swear I don't have a gun") take it out of the crime forum and start a thread in Some Honest Therapy.

(05-23-2012, 04:50 PM)LytoMe Wrote: **Inappropriately carrying a firearm while on Neighborhood Watch, contrary to his NW training. Where did you come up with this? The Police report stated and there was a picture of it, he had the gun in the holster when the Police arrived.

Refusing to follow instructions from police and following M while carrying a firearm. A non-emergency telephone call was made, they are operators they are in no way shape or form a police officer.

Acting in a manner that provoked a confrontation (no matter who threw the first punch) with an unarmed, law abiding citizen who had every right to be where he was while carrying a concealed weapon. haha Law abiding citizen, was that a joke? We are still talking about the person who was arrested for drugs, had drugs in his system, had a bag full of jewelry & a screwdriver concealed and who assaulted a school bus driver….this is the same law abiding citizen your talking about? haha And I would say that it does matter who threw the first punch, with the law it could make or break the case for self defense.

Neighborhood Watch training: I posted a newspaper article about a month ago containing an interview with the woman who taught Z's seminar. Look it up. Neighborhood Watch tells their people NOT to carry firearms.

911: Not binding, admittedly, but certainly puts Z in a position of having to explain (in addition to everything else) why he didn't do what he was told.

Every time I check out this thread, I see LC's comments contained in the first sentences of her first post. Maybe you should read them.

Yes, law abiding citizen. He could have robbed a bank every day for the last month, and twice on Fridays, and still have had the right to be where he was and do what he was doing. He was commiting no crime.

THC (perhaps 5 days old) in his system? Do you REALLY think that has ANY relevance to what occurred between them?

Z shot and killed and unarmed kid.

No judge in his/her right mind is going to let him keep his CCP. But the criminal charges have to be taken care of first, so we will all have to wait.

for the record, my very first post in this thread that you cite was predicated on what little was known then. a lot has been learned since then.

(05-23-2012, 06:02 PM)Sterling Wrote: Look, sport. I stated an opinion that it is NOT a foregone conclusion that his CCP will be revoked. It was an opinion. You, on the other hand, seem to need some sort of bizarre validation that your posts are spot on. I don't care if he keeps or loses his CCP. YOU DO! I'm sorry you hang with or know idiots who lose their CCP. That's something I don't think I'd mention. As to why do I think a conviction is required in this case to have his CCP revoked, I've previously stated:

1.) I am only familiar with AZ's liberal gun laws

2.) I have no idea and (upon request) have not seen Florida's statutes regarding self defense or CCP, therefore I AM APPLYING THE LAWS OF MY STATE GOVERNING MY RIGHT AND RESPONSIBILITY TO CARRY.

additionally

3.) I never posted ". . . that people have a RIGHT to a CCP or try to use RIGHT and PRIVILEGE as though they meant the same thing . . . " as you claim. You are mistaken and confused. If I did, share the post number.

4.) Get over yourself. If you want to kick my virtual ass ("I swear I don't have a gun") take it out of the crime forum and start a thread in Some Honest Therapy.

Said it before, say it again.

Wait and see.

(05-23-2012, 06:07 PM)Lady Cop Wrote: for the record, my very first post in this thread that you cite was predicated on what little was known then. a lot has been learned since then.

Agreed.

But is there anything you've learned since that convinces you your initial gut feeling was wrong?

(05-23-2012, 06:26 PM)Disciple Wrote:

(05-23-2012, 06:07 PM)Lady Cop Wrote: for the record, my very first post in this thread that you cite was predicated on what little was known then. a lot has been learned since then.

Agreed.

But is there anything you've learned since that convinces you your initial gut feeling was wrong?

this was my initial post:

this has been bothering me a lot. i think this neighborhood watch guy was a gung-ho cop-wannabe. he had no need to be armed in that capacity.
i really feel for this kid and his family.
it goes to the state attny. office today.
sadly we'll also be seeing media whores sharpton and jackson stirring up shit soon.
-----------------

no, my gut was right.
but at that point the collective "we" had been manipulated into seeing Martin as a little boy. and of course the details were unknown.

I love this thread!! *munches popcorn*

I wish they'd just had a fist fight and T had kicked Z's ass with nobody dying.

It's all the gun's fault!

(05-23-2012, 06:53 PM)username Wrote: I love this thread!! *munches popcorn*

I wish they'd just had a fist fight and T had kicked Z's ass with nobody dying.

It's all the gun's fault!

What was the comment "guns kill people, people dont kill people"...

I am sure that is what would have happened if George did not carry a weapon.

Has it been stated WHEN he received the permit and bought this gun? AND did he have a motive as to why he would be carrying it the night he was going to the store? Was it routine for him to keep it on him?

(05-24-2012, 10:32 AM)LytoMe Wrote: What was the comment "guns kill people, people dont kill people"...

I am sure that is what would have happened if George did not carry a weapon.

I don't want to go off topic and get in to a gun debate (I'm not a gun opponent necessarily) but, I'm curious. Assuming T was beating on Z, do you think Z was actually in mortal danger? That a fight between them would have resulted in Z's death absent the use of lethal force?