(07-09-2013, 01:22 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: Perceived fear . . . not actual bruises . . . is the litmus test for use of deadly force.

One man's alleged beating is another's slap and tickle.

Yep, and the defense was smart in focusing a good several minutes of its opening statement on how George Zimmerman was "soft" and a "crappy fighter" (para).

Yesterday, the defense spent a good long time with the owner of Zimmerman's gym, prompting him to essentially describe, confirm, and reconfirm what a pussy George Zimmerman was ("though he tried really hard").

The defense is attempting to demonstrate that even though Zimmerman didn't fight back and wasn't gravely injured (even according to today's defense forensic evidence expert) when he shot and killed Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman made every reasonable attempt to escape the situation and was reasonably in fear of great bodily harm or death; the legal burden for self defense.

Zimmerman's actions were "reasonable" because he was so very physically weak and incompetent in his ability to defend himself, according to the defense.

Whether we like it or not (and I don't), that's how the law works.

IMO.

(07-09-2013, 01:51 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Whether we like it or not (and I don't), that's how the law works.

IMO.

"The law is an ass." - Charles Dickens

"Then the law is crazy!" - "Dirty" Harry Callahan

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." - William Blackstone

Too bad T didn't get a chance to claim stand your ground.

"I was walking home from 7-11, a little buzzed with my skittles and iced tea and I notice this cracker ass staring at me from his truck. I kept walking and I saw him get out of his truck and start following me so I made like a Kenyan and run, man. I could still see him looking for me. I axed him why you following me? He had his hand on what looked like a gun. I was skeered for my life so I punched that cracker ass. I was trying to keep that crazy mofucka from reaching for his gun and popping my ass so I hazd him pinned down but gotdamn, if that fat boy didn't get to his gun and shooted me anyway. And dat's da damn truf".

(07-09-2013, 02:02 PM)username Wrote: Too bad T didn't get a chance to claim stand your ground.

I think he did and died because of this.

I think that the state can/should try to counter the "Georgie was a pussy and his efforts/fear were reasonable in context with his limited abilities" argument by focusing on Zimmerman's gross exaggeration of the beating.

Zimmerman lied. He wasn't confused. He didn't miscount swings. He lied. IMO.

The state would be smarter to focus on George's credibility than on his reasonableness (which is more subjective).

If George Zimmerman lied about the beating, what else did he lie about? Demonstrating that Zimmerman lied doesn't prove that he is a murderer, but might convince the jury that since he lied about the beating to make himself look more helpless/justified, he might not have felt helpless at all in confronting the teen. He felt strong knowing that he always had his gun for back-up. Anyway, that's where I think I'd go were I de la Rionda.

(07-09-2013, 02:05 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: The state would be smarter to focus on George's credibility than on his reasonableness (which is more subjective).

If George Zimmerman lied about the beating, what else did he lie about? Anyway, that's where I'd go were I de la Rionda.

Effin' solid thinking, HotD!

I'm just kinda thinking out loud, so to speak - I've heard a couple times during the trial that George is right handed but at least once I've seen him use his left hand to write because I can remember thinking, southpaw.

That is all.

Out of all the fights I have ben in, with the exception of one fight, I cannot tell you how many punches were thrown in each fight. The one that I can say for sure, was a 3 punch fight and I knocked the guy out cold. So it doesn't surprise me that his count is off on the number of punches thrown that night.

Funny how the State of Florida, who was so smart and did the right thing to jump in and try this case is also the same State of Florida that is now not asking the right questions, not focusing on the right theories, or preparing their witnesses well enough.

It can't possibly be that they had a weak case and not enough contrary facts to work with.

Nope. Can't be.

(07-09-2013, 02:41 PM)Jimbone Wrote: Funny how the State of Florida, who was so smart and did the right thing to jump in and try this case is also the same State of Florida that is now not asking the right questions, not focusing on the right theories, or preparing their witnesses well enough.

It can't possibly be that they had a weak case and not enough contrary facts to work with.

Nope. Can't be.

I'm giving you the middle toe & I'm barefoot!

(07-09-2013, 02:40 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: Out of all the fights I have ben in, with the exception of one fight, I cannot tell you how many punches were thrown in each fight. The one that I can say for sure, was a 3 punch fight and I knocked the guy out cold. So it doesn't surprise me that his count is off on the number of punches thrown that night.

I've been in four fist fights, defending myself. Don't ask; went with the territory at the time.

I don't know how many punches that I threw or received except for the first one, but I certainly know it wasn't "dozens" to the face when it was a couple or a few.

(07-09-2013, 02:41 PM)Jimbone Wrote: Funny how the State of Florida, who was so smart and did the right thing to jump in and try this case is also the same State of Florida that is now not asking the right questions, not focusing on the right theories, or preparing their witnesses well enough.

It can't possibly be that they had a weak case and not enough contrary facts to work with.

Nope. Can't be.

I agree JB. I think the state really did not want to try this case until the media worked everyone into a frenzy. Then they said fuck it, lets charge him and let the lawyers deal with it. Maybe they can make a case of it. If not maybe John Q public will calm down about it by the time it comes to trial.

(07-09-2013, 02:44 PM)Duchess Wrote:
I'm giving you the middle toe & I'm barefoot!

(07-09-2013, 02:46 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: I agree JB. I think the state really did not want to try this case until the media worked everyone into a frenzy. Then they said fuck it, lets charge him and let the lawyers deal with it. Maybe they can make a case of it. If not maybe John Q public will calm down about it by the time it comes to trial.

Well, that's all I have been trying to say since early on.

I don't know if he's innocent or not, don't really care. But I know the locals who were going to try him wanted a grand jury to decide if charges were warranted. Then the state stepped in - because they had nothing better to do apparently and it had nothing whatsoever to do with racial politics -and took over the case.

Imagine that! A grand jury wasn't to be trusted to decide if charges were warranted... but they ARE trusted to deliver a verdict in this trial.

How weirdly ironic.

(07-09-2013, 02:45 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(07-09-2013, 02:40 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: Out of all the fights I have ben in, with the exception of one fight, I cannot tell you how many punches were thrown in each fight. The one that I can say for sure, was a 3 punch fight and I knocked the guy out cold. So it doesn't surprise me that his count is off on the number of punches thrown that night.

I've been in four fist fights, defending myself. Don't ask; went with the territory at the time.

I don't know how many punches that I threw or received except for the first one, but I certainly know it wasn't "dozens" to the face when it was a couple or a few.

Z could have ben thinking about the blocked punches as well as the ones that actually connected. The ME reports would not wave ben able to account for those.

4 fights?!? You go girl. I like a woman that's not afraid of getting down and dirty.

(07-09-2013, 02:41 PM)Jimbone Wrote: It can't possibly be that they had a weak case and not enough contrary facts to work with.

Nope. Can't be.

Sure it can.

It just doesn't mean that charges weren't merited. IMO.

I don't disagree that prosecution attorneys sometimes believe that their charges and evidence (physical and/or circumstantial) are solid, and yet they still present a weak case and fail to convince juries.

Nor do I disagree that prosecution attorneys sometimes know that their physical and/or circumstantial evidence is weak, and yet believe that their theory is correct, and present compelling cases that succeed in convincing juries to convict.

Then there's strong evidence and strong presentation, weak evidence and weak presentation...

Seen all kinds, more than once.

I can remember pretty well how many blows were thrown in the fights I had sober the many I had drunk? No.

In fact the many I had drunk I can barely remember who won or lost.

Alcohol and fighting should be mutually exclusive.

This whole I don't understand how Z feared for his life, thing has me scratching my head.

So for those that say this can you honestly say that if a 6ft tall person and yourself get into a tussle, in the dark, he punches you in the face, you fall to the ground and he jumps on top of you and he starts bashing your head into the ground and punches you in the face, you would not fear great bodily harm or even death?

Come on now be honest with yourself.

(07-09-2013, 02:58 PM)Cynical Ninja Wrote: I can remember pretty well how many blows were thrown in the fights I had sober the many I had drunk? No.

In fact the many I had drunk I can barely remember who won or lost.

Alcohol and fighting should be mutually exclusive.

This could be my case also OP. I did not have many sober fights, but even at 50 years old I still am getting in fights at closing time at the bar.

(07-09-2013, 03:01 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: This whole I don't understand how Z feared for his life, thing has me scratching my head.

So for those that say this can you honestly say that if a 6ft tall person and yourself get into a tussle, in the dark, he punches you in the face, you fall to the ground and he jumps on top of you and he starts bashing your head into the ground and punches you in the face, you would not fear great bodily harm or even death?

Come on no be honest with yourself.

I don't think George's injuries appeared life threatening. The police were already on their way; I don't think George would have died if they had continued to scuffle for several more minutes. Far from it.

However, if T was in fact going for Z's gun, then shit yeah, they both should have been in fear for their lives.

The gun carriers aren't going to appreciate this but if Z hadn't been armed that night, I'm pretty certain they'd both be alive today.