Can we justify crime? For example, a grandmother who steals eggs to feed her hungry grandchildren. In regards to torture, does the end justify the means? Two wildly different scenarios but both crimes I've seen people attempt to justify.

Yep. Ever speed?

All kinds of justification. I was late. It was fun. Medical emergency. Gotta beat the rain.

To answer your examples... stealing food to prevent starvation is not considered immoral by many religions, so that's easy. Torture depends on the end and the means. Sleep deprivation is a form of torture. Tickling can be a form of torture. Are we trying to get a person's ATM pincode, or need the location of a dying child? It's always going to be a personal question what end justifies what means. The same weight on the seesaw won't lift me tho it does you.

I'll tickle the shit out of you for your ATM code.

(12-11-2014, 07:18 AM)Duchess Wrote:

Can we justify crime? For example, a grandmother who steals eggs to feed her hungry grandchildren. In regards to torture, does the end justify the means? Two wildly different scenarios but both crimes I've seen people attempt to justify.

You can try to justify crime. The government can justify anything.

Stealing is a crime, whether you're stealing money, food, or items, if you didn't earn it, it isn't yours to take. I don't care if you've got 100 hungry children out to feed. There are lots of agencies that will give you food, hell-if you go on craigslist or Facebook and ask-you can probably get some schmuck to give you food, you don't have to take it from a store.

Torture? We prosecute the average joe for torture. We call it different names like Assault, Murder, Kidnapping, but it's all a form of torture.
The end never justifies the means.

cannongal used the silent treatment once

She's an animal.

There are so many people on FB lately asking for hand outs or food or help it's out of control.

Cut off a hand if they do it again cut off the other one. With all the food pantries out there some people would rather steal than swallow their pride.

And torture should be saved for the ones that have tortured others, does anyone think if a CIA agent was captured in any number of other countries they would NOT be tortured. Hell.........being a journalist will get your fingers broken and head slit in some place.

(12-11-2014, 09:49 AM)Maggot Wrote: does anyone think if a CIA agent was captured in any number of other countries they would NOT be tortured.

I don't doubt that at all, not a bit.

As far as the torture goes, I don't necessarily think about it being right or wrong or even justifiable. It's my belief that once you lower yourself to the level of the enemy you are no better than them and I'm fine with that, just don't attempt to present yourself as the better person, you're not. That's a general statement, not "you" as in Maggot.

(12-11-2014, 08:20 AM)Cutz Wrote: cannongal used the silent treatment once

She's an animal.

I tried the silent treatment once...it was torture for me, since I can't seem to shut up for longer than 2 seconds.

Nowadays I like to watch the show "killer wives" and tell the hubs that I am taking notes. It seems to get that vain in his forehead bulging really well.

I can see torture in a situation of immediate peril, but to have the agents of torture enjoying their art is a bit unnerving. I do understand that torture is not everyones forte but I've seen videos of Mexican drug cartels beating the living crap out of people and they seem to be hardened to it. Like killing, once a person does it a few times they lose the inner moral compass and start to enjoy the power of life over death.
I think this was released to point fingers at the previous administration when in all actuality this administration and the Clinton and before all knew this thing was happening.

(12-11-2014, 10:20 AM)cannongal Wrote: Nowadays I like to watch the show "killer wives" and tell the hubs that I am taking notes. It seems to get that vain in his forehead bulging really well.

I was listening to a standup comedian talk about how he watches real-life crime and murder shows... it's always the wife or husband that did it. He said something to the effect of, "People go out and spend thousands on home security systems... I want the Brinks Home Security Bed. Some kind of sealed chamber so... Oh goodnight Honey... I love you.


BUT I DON'T TRUST YOU!"

(12-11-2014, 07:18 AM)Duchess Wrote:

Can we justify crime? For example, a grandmother who steals eggs to feed her hungry grandchildren.

There's another part to this story that I'm not sure the American public got to hear.

After the grandmother had been caught stealing eggs (her grandchildren hadn't eaten in nearly 2 days), the cops who were called to the scene decided to something about it.

They didnt arrest her, but instead, bought her groceries and delivered them to her home.

Also, here in Minnespolis a little more than a week ago, a black family had their Christmas presents stolen from under their tree. Later that day, the local police department brought many presents to their home in order to try to help the kids.

However, society would rather focus on the handful of negative incidents instead of appreciating what 99% of cops do: protect and serve their communities.

(12-17-2014, 08:20 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: However, society would rather focus on the handful of negative incidents instead of appreciating what 99% of cops do: protect and serve their communities.

I was reading a story the other day about a woman in her 80's (I think it was) who had been pulled over, she was trying to reach her son who had been hospitalized several hours away. The cop put her in his car, took her to the county line where another trooper met them. It continued like that in every county until she reached her son.

(12-17-2014, 08:20 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: However, society would rather focus on the handful of negative incidents instead of appreciating what 99% of cops do: protect and serve their communities.

I always wonder where you get the percentages that you toss out there as if they were facts. My guess: you pull them outta your ass. Am I right?

I'm trying to understand why it appears to frustrate you so deeply that people want bad, brutal, or inept/unqualified cops fired or otherwise held accountable for their actions. Just because people, society, don't want such cops policing their communities doesn't mean they don't appreciate and support the good cops. While I agree that the good ones are the majority of cops, I personally think "99% of cops are good" is a very optimistic guesstimate.

Anyway, even if only only 1% of all cops fall into the "bad" category, do you think they should be less accountable for their actions than other people? Do you think if a combat solider leaves base at night and shoots innocent civilians that it should be overlooked because 92.9% of soldiers are good soldiers? Do you think that Carmine the cabbie should be given a pass if he drives drunk on the job and runs down a kid because 85% of cabbies work sober? Do you think that teachers who molest their minor students should face no consequences because 94.3% of teachers are never inappropriate with their students?

(Note: All percentages pulled outta my ass for demonstrative purposes only.)

Nope, anyone who can be proven to be doing a poor or substandard job should be removed from their position. That's fair to say.

In the instances of Mike Brown and even Tamir Rice, it's solely MY OPINION, that the police responded to legitimate threats (though Rice's weapon turned out to be an air gun).

It may come out later (or may not) that the protocol those cops used was incorrect, but the cops were responding to an actual 911 call because Tamir was not playing like a little kid, but was simulating (I've seen the video) some sort of gangbanger in a public place.

Did Tamir's story have a tragic ending? For sure. Did the cops pull up on him too closely? We'll find out. Ultimately, Tamir put himself in that unenviable position, again IN MY OPINION.

As for mr Garner in NYC, I've been very clear that the cop who used the chokehold needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

So, IMO, I've seen just ONE instance of a "bad" cop, and he needs to be dealt with.

If you've only seen one instance of a bad cop in your whole life, you either have a very strange definition of "bad" or you haven't watched/read the videos and stories in the news and in the Mock threads -- videos and stories of clearly brutal or inept cops who were fired or charged for their actions on the job.

And, that doesn't even take into account cops like Drew Peterson who commit murder and other crimes off the clock.

If it's really your contention that there's only 1 clearly bad cop running about, MS, you need to up your good cops guesstimate to 99.99%.

HotD, give me a little more credit.

I'm talking about the recent instances that have drawn so much attention.

Cops have been corrupt throughout the ages, but I believe they're getting better and better.

They DO need to have the public scrutinize them, but the public also needs to appreciate the countless thousands who are doing their jobs daily and aren't bringing negative attention to themselves or their departments.

(12-17-2014, 09:26 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: HotD, give me a little more credit.

I'm talking about the recent instances that have drawn so much attention.

Cops have been corrupt throughout the ages, but I believe they're getting better and better.

They DO need to have the public scrutinize them, but the public also needs to appreciate the countless thousands who are doing their jobs daily and aren't bringing negative attention to themselves or their departments.

Hey, I respond to what you put out there directly in your posts and apply credit accordingly, mister.

I appreciate cops, praise ones who go above and beyond, recognize and mourn those who fall in the line of duty... I don't think I'm exceptional in that regard, based on what I see and hear from others.

I appreciate teachers and cabbies too. I appreciate soldiers who fight for our country as well. Servers, bartenders, mail carriers, fire fighters, caregivers, financial advisors -- all appreciated by me. I think most people appreciate others doing their service jobs adequately or well, while also believing that anyone in the work force who victimizes their customers/clients/co-workers should be held accountable for it.

In my eyes, people who choose to become police officers are no less responsible for their actions and job performance, and no more deserving of a ticker tape parade to celebrate them doing what they signed up for and what they're paid to do, than anyone else in the work force.

(12-17-2014, 09:26 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: The public also needs to appreciate the countless thousands who are doing their jobs daily and aren't bringing negative attention to themselves or their departments.

I've never seen anyone say they didn't appreciate those cops. I don't say anything snarky about them either. Kudos to those LEO's.

(12-17-2014, 09:48 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(12-17-2014, 09:26 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: The public also needs to appreciate the countless thousands who are doing their jobs daily and aren't bringing negative attention to themselves or their departments.

I've never seen anyone say they didn't appreciate those cops. I don't say anything snarky about them either. Kudos to those LEO's.

I'm not talking about this forum at all.

72.523% of statistics are made up on the spot.