(06-23-2015, 01:57 PM)Jimbone Wrote: Just noticed I have a Confederate flag on my truck. Go figure.

Now that is shocking, Jimbone. Truly.

Do you identify with its historical symbolism of white supremacy, and/or do you just consider yourself a proud and rebellious Southerner?

Like New Hampshire's or the Colonial flag, I see the the Confederate flag as a symbol of revolution . . . a revolution testing the principles and forgiveness of a new Republic.

To see it solely as a racist symbol, to me, is myopic and dangerous.

An old white man dressed as a plantation owner hawking chicken is far more offensive to me.

Like Aunt Jemima without a bandana.

There were far more whites who didn't own slaves, in the South, than slave owners.

I wonder what they were fighting for?

My lawn jockey is crying.

(06-23-2015, 11:29 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Did you read the full post Gunnar?

Does it say that the change is being proposed based on the ideals of the ignorant few, the white supremists?

Does it say that the change is being proposed to piss off those who are ignorant in regards to the flag's history and what it symbolizes in its original context?

It doesn't say that. It says that I agree with the politicians calling for the policy change because I don't think South Carolina is a state that's still fighting to subjugate blacks or rebelling against the abolition of slavery. So, I can understand why it's time to stop flying on government grounds a flag that, to many, symbolizes and glorifies that long lost fight.

Can't please everyone and I understand that you don't think it would be a good change in policy, for your own reasons.

I think the policy change may require a ²⁄₃ majority vote in state congress. In any case, it's the decision of the state's elected leaders whether it should stay or go.

By citing it, it's validated in the eyes of John Q. Public.

They were fighting to retain the right to own slaves.

They were fighting against Lincoln and the Unionists who were moving to do away with slavery.

They wanted to secede from the Union because they did not want to give up slave-owning rights. Even those who didn't own slaves were culturally accustomed to blacks being defined and treated legally as lesser and inferior to them.

They were fighting because they were regionally loyal.

Plus, there was all that cotton picking to do and even white folks who didn't own slaves feared that their economy would be destroyed if slave labor was abolished.

I don't see the Confederate Flag as being solely a racist symbol today. I think it means different things to different people. I think a lot of people don't even know the history behind it and what the Confederates themselves described as their sole reason for fighting to secede, though it's all clearly documented and not subjective.

Historically speaking, it's not debatable that the Confederate Flag was the symbol of those fighting to keep slavery alive and keep blacks from achieving equal legal standing in this country.

(06-23-2015, 02:29 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: By citing it, it's validated in the eyes of John Q. Public.

Alright.

(06-23-2015, 02:31 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I think a lot of people don't even know the history behind it

I don't, not really, nope. I have always associated it with mainly the South because that's where I've seen it the most (I've seen it here too) but I don't think I've ever given any thought to it being racist or standing for white supremacy. I've seen it in the back window of plenty of pickups and I always think "hick".

I believe that states should have the right to do what they think is best for their state. I wouldn't begrudge them that.

(06-23-2015, 02:15 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Now that is shocking, Jimbone. Truly.

Do you identify with its historical symbolism of white supremacy, and/or do you just consider yourself a proud and rebellious Southerner?

LOL, no, it's not what you think... I'm not white supremacist or a proud and rebellious Southern. Not even a racist, as some have suggested here...

I was taking off the registration sticker ago put the new one on, then glanced up at a window cling I had put on in January:



ETA: The Civil War Trust is a non-profit that purchases and saves historical land from being developed, or it buys developed land and returns it to its Civila War era state. Most of the land is in or around existing Civil War battlefield sites, so they generally acquire the land and then turn it over to whoever runs the park (National Park Service or other state agency). They also run great educational programs for people of all ages, and have a really good website and apps for those interested in learning more about the Civil War.

I support them because at a young age I spent time at a Civll War battlefield (Gettysburg), and I think it was there I developed a real love of all history. I want to make sure other little bones have the same chance years from now.


Now I'm not going to take it down, because I don't find its use in any way, shape, or form offensive. But I guess someone could argue it is. That's what makes this all seem a little knee jerk to me... but the jerking continues, as now eBay is banning Confederate flag items too, along with Walmart and Sears.

Your move Amazon.

(06-23-2015, 02:31 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: They were fighting to retain the right to own slaves.

They were fighting against Lincoln and the Unionists who were moving to do away with slavery.

They wanted to secede from the Union because they did not want to give up slave-owning rights. Even those who didn't own slaves were culturally accustomed to blacks being defined and treated legally as lesser and inferior to them.

They were fighting because they were regionally loyal.

Plus, there was all that cotton picking to do and even white folks who didn't own slaves feared that their economy would be destroyed if slave labor was abolished.

I don't see the Confederate Flag as being solely a racist symbol today. I think it means different things to different people. I think a lot of people don't even know the history behind it and what the Confederates themselves described as their sole reason for fighting to secede, though it's all clearly documented and not subjective.

Historically speaking, it's not debatable that the Confederate Flag was the symbol of those fighting to keep slavery alive and keep blacks from achieving equal legal standing in this country.

And then there was that whole "States Rights" thing too which is conveniently left out of EVERY conversation about the Civil War. SC even issued a "Declaration of Causes" along with their "Article of Secessession."

I think supporters of the flag and those who want it taken down should both protest.

I snapped at my son two days ago. Totally inappropriate (remember though, the kid is a year and a half away from adulthood...not 10 or something). I was trying to get him to school and he had seemingly left everything but his body in the house. Went to get socks for him. Went to get backpack. Check. Finally, he says "oh crap, can you get my phone"?

Me losing it: "do I LOOK like your nigger"? We'd never talked about the word before but he called me a racist all the way to school while I tried to explain my feelings about why some blacks are hypocritical about the word, I asked what he thought of "honky". It was an interesting conversation although being a know-it-all teen, his mother is still a racist. Wonder if he'll shoot up a church one day?

Later that day, Obama said nigger...but he wasn't CALLING anyone a nigger. Since I was referring to myself, I think I get a pass like the POTUS.

(06-23-2015, 02:51 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: And then there was that whole "States Rights" thing too which is conveniently left out of EVERY conversation about the Civil War. SC even issued a "Declaration of Causes" along with their "Article of Secessession."

I think supporters of the flag and those who want it taken down should both protest.

It was definitely about 'States Rights' BG. But the main right they were fighting to keep was slavery. There is no real debate to that.

The election of Lincoln and his position on the abolition of slavery pushed the southern states to act. So they seceded from the Union, and the rest as they say is history.

The south was also supplying cotton to the northern factories. Other countries were buying raw cotton from the south so the north blockaded the ports. Much of the war was about money, sure slavery was part of the mix years before as abolitionists were prevalent in the north for many years.
Lincoln did not like slavery, he thought it was wrong but if keeping slavery meant preserving the union he would have done it. He wanted to ship them to Africa because he had no clue what to do with them after the war.
The south wanted their own country, they had the produce to sell and the money but it would have destroyed "the union"
That is what the war was about, that and money. Slavery was an incidental outcome that was used on a moral basis as justification to keep the south and their agricultural advantage over the north. They were beginning to sell to Spain, Great Britain, France and a host of other countries. It was money not morality that started the civil war. The north represented most of congress and placed tariffs on goods the south sold to foreign countries. The south thought that was wrong and seceded. Only the rich had slaves.

Slavery is certainly wrong and today there is something much worse. Human trafficking.

(06-23-2015, 03:01 PM)Maggot Wrote: The south was also supplying cotton to the northern factories. Other countries were buying raw cotton from the south so the north blockaded the ports. Much of the war was about money, sure slavery was part of the mix years before as abolitionists were prevalent in the north for many years.
Lincoln did not like slavery, he thought it was wrong but if keeping slavery meant preserving the union he would have done it. He wanted to ship them to Africa because he had no clue what to do with them after the war.
The south wanted their own country, they had the produce to sell and the money but it would have destroyed "the union"
That is what the war was about, that and money. Slavery was an incidental outcome that was used on a moral basis as justification to keep the south and their agricultural advantage over the north. They were beginning to sell to Spain, Great Britain, France and a host of other countries. It was money not morality that started the civil war. The north represented most of congress and placed tariffs on goods the south sold to foreign countries. The south thought that was wrong and seceded. Only the rich had slaves.

Slavery is certainly wrong and today there is something much worse. Human trafficking.

States Rights Jimbone.

I don't think everyone who displays the Confederate flag is a racist or a white supremist. Not at all.

But, I certainly don't disparage people of any color who view it as symbolic of those ideals because their perspective is not wrong either.

I too think that it's the state's call whether to fly or not to fly the flag at the State Capitol and those in office surely understand the views of those on both sides and know the history and South Carolina's leading role in it.

The decision will be made where it should be made, IMO.

Hahaha, user! Dress him in hoodie and turn him loose with a REPUBLIC of California flag!

Thanks, HotD . . . was always under the impression the South seceded due to Lincoln's vow of no NEW slave states.

And the fact they didn't like the rich mechanized North dictating to the economically challenged agrarian South.

Kinda like today's argument against the haves dictating to the have nots.

Didn't realize the slaves were freed prior to or during the Civil War.

Never knew they were fighting for something already taken from them.

Had slavery been phased out over time there would most likely be lots less racism. The overnight abolishment of slavery is what created the racism seen today. On setting the slaves free they became worse than they were before and targets by southerners that fell to the atrocities the northern soldiers performed on families in the south. The north was not kind. The south blamed it all on the blacks when it should have been blamed on the plantation owners.
Had the south not seceded it would have been very different today. The civil war was more likely created by the 10-12 richest businessmen in the south getting together and plotting the entire secession. Dumb fucks that cared more about the money than the country.

(06-23-2015, 03:05 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: States Rights Jimbone.

I know BG, I said above it was about States Rights.

Old Southerners (some) hate Yankees. Only good manners prevents them from spitting at your feet.

You learn something new everyday Tiki.

I do at least.

(06-23-2015, 03:17 PM)Duchess Wrote:

Old Southerners (some) hate Yankees. Only good manners prevents them from spitting at your feet.

When I lived in Texas in the late 90's, one of the women I worked with used to have me over for neighborhood gatherings and such. Cool family, I liked them a lot! She sort of adopted me in because I was far from my family I guess.

Every time she introduced me to someone new, it was "I want you to meet my friend Jim, he's a Yankee.".

Every. Single. Time.

I found it charming. But that's my white privilege showing I keed, I keed.