Reading his exact quotes, my interpretation is that Pope Francis is equating modern capitalism to greed and selfishness.

He seems to think that the vulnerable, poor, and disenfranchised are ignored or scorned by capitalist leaders and a large portion of the population.

I'm a capitalist, but I can't argue with him that many times when the topics of protecting children, aiding those in financial need, extending equal rights, etc... come up, some of the very first responses (often from Christians) are: "how much will it cost me?, "why should the many have to help or pay for the few?", "there are no environmental problems, it's a liberal scheme to make money off the taxpayers"... Stuff like that.

I'm not a Christian and I'm not making a judgment call on whether those responses bear merit or not, just noting that they're common and possibly what the Pope observes and attributes to capitalistic society.

Anyway, he's an interesting leader and I don't personally doubt his sincere good will and humanitarianism, but he sure can shake things up like no Pope I can remember.

(07-10-2015, 11:38 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I was wondering whether you, and some of Mock's other Christians, agree with the Pope that capitalism is to be condemned as it defies the teachings of Jesus, greater and deliberate distribution of wealth is in line with Jesus' expectations of man, and protecting God's earth for future generations trumps costs and profits.

Why should Americans care about the Pope's views on capitalism or Mother Earth . . . unless it's on an individual and personal level?

Where is the outrage from the "separation of church and state" people because a cleric is using his position to ostensibly shape the political and legislative landscape . . . primarily through world leaders?

I don't recall any Gospel or Commandment encouraging recycling or reducing carbon footprints.

I do recall that Jesus opened up a can of whoop-ass on the money lenders but was not adverse to paying taxes "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's . . . ".

Let the Pope command his flock to tithe heavily and do good works to his fellows and the earth.

Bernie Sanders will do the rest.

I don't know to what degree Americans care about the Pope's views, but I am curious about how people here at Mock (particularly Christians) feel about them.

The Pope swings both ways, if you apply his views to the American political system.

He's aligned with many conservative Christian politicians on the right when it comes to opposing abortion and gay marriage, on religious grounds.

And, he's aligned with Bernie and some liberal politicians on the left when it comes to opposing environmental apathy and a capitalistic system which he believes puts profits ahead of people. <-- I don't know if those specific oppositions are based on religious grounds or based more on his socio-political personal beliefs.

Anyway, the Pope's got a hell of a powerful global leadership position without some of the challenges inherent to the American political system -- no separation of church and state issues at play, no costly campaigns to be waged, no voter alienation to worry about, massive and lucrative tax-free special interest group backing him pretty much unconditionally... Not a bad gig for a true believer.

This Pope seems sincerely motivated to change the world. Interesting man.

(07-10-2015, 03:38 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: . . . on religious grounds.

And that's where his thoughts should stay.

Jesus worked. When he was a little short, he relied on God and man . . . NOT the Roman Empire, for an EBT card.

Besides . . . if you are to give to Caesar, you need an effin' job!

Let his flock model their capitalistic businesses, in alignment with the Pope's religious views . . . and refuse service to gays and baby killing sluts.

Me . . . I'll just keep paying taxes and continue to support the economic lepers.

I'm a capitalist.

I don't think the Pope should be restricted from speaking his mind/thoughts, on whatever grounds, just because he's critical of something that I embrace.

(07-10-2015, 04:35 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I'm a capitalist.

So am I.

Speak to the flock . . . not to the leaders of nations.

The flock, if embracing the Pope's views, should then move through their various representatives to facilitate legislative change.

I don't want a cleric to have the ear or be on the sleeve, of my leader.

I would think anyone with ambition/drive would be a capitalist. I'm not working for my health, I work so I can have my stuff and maybe pay someone to paint the garage door. I'm materialistic too, I like my things.

(07-10-2015, 04:46 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: Speak to the flock . . . not to the leaders of nations.

The flock, if embracing the Pope's views, should then move through their various representatives to facilitate legislative change.

That's a laugh. For example if Catholics truly voted their conscience and their Pope's views, a pro-choice candidate could never win national office.

Most religious folk are religious when it suits them.

(07-10-2015, 04:46 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: I don't want a cleric to have the ear or be on the sleeve, of my leader.

Interesting. I don't mind at all.

Modern-era Popes have always had political duties; meeting with heads of states and pushing for human rights, weighing in on international conflicts between countries/peoples and advocating for peaceful resolutions, and such.

I don't see any problem with it and wouldn't want to restrict the Pope from meeting with my leader anymore than I'd wanna restrict my leader from meeting with the Dalai Lama, the Chief Rabbis, etc...

(07-10-2015, 05:14 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Modern-era Popes have always had political duties; meeting with heads of states and pushing for human rights, weighing in on international conflicts between countries/peoples and advocating for peaceful resolutions, and such.

I don't see any problem with it and wouldn't want to restrict the Pope from meeting with my leader anymore than I'd wanna restrict my leader from meeting with the Dalai Lama, the Chief Rabbis, etc...

I have no problem with a cleric meeting with leaders as their spiritual advisers . . . NOT as politicians.

Besides . . . Canon Law prohibits clerics from " . . . public offices which entail a participation in the exercise of civil power."

The Pope is now acting as if he were holding a public office . . . that of a political Ambassador . . . participating DIRECTLY in global (foreign) civil matters.

Keep it within the flock . . . I'm sure there are Catholic lobbyists that will accept Vatican checks to promote his causes.

Get back to being a server . . . bring me my bread and wine!

(07-11-2015, 04:24 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: Get back to being a server . . . bring me my bread and wine!

Socialist!

Personally, I think that the Catholic Church's message condemning contraception and abortion -- delivered by the Pope and all of the church's clerics worldwide -- contributes to inequalities in wealth distribution and taxes the earth as much or more than capitalism.

But, I get what the Pope is saying about how the systematic unfettered pursuit of money, money, money -- with disregard for human rights and without deliberately working to minimize inequalities -- contradicts Jesus' mission. I know that not all capitalists are greedy and apathetic about the welfare of others or the planet though.

Pope Francis did deliver his speech to the "flock", in Latin America this time. The Pope's not violating Canon Law in delivering addresses and meeting with world leaders. Anybody who isn't interested in his views, doesn't have to listen to them, read them, or heed them. There's no reason, IMO, he should have any restrictions placed upon his speech or interactions in addressing human rights issues and Christian values/obligations, regardless of the audience and regardless as to whether his messages include political tie-ins.

It was interesting when Boehner invited Netanyahu to address Congress and gave him a platform to preach the Jewish State of Israel's opposition to the secular U.S. engaging in nuclear negotiations with the Islamic Republic of Iran; with Netanyahu using that platform to passionately proclaim that Jewish religious persecution and destruction of Jewish land are direct threats of those negotiations.

I think it will be equally or more interesting when Pope Francis accepts Boehner's novel invitation and addresses the U.S. Congress in September. If Pope Francis uses that platform to again proclaim that all of humanity is threatened by greedy capitalism and unaddressed environmental issues, it'll be fun reading the GOP responses. (ETA: Boehner's invitation, uncoordinated with the White House, was issued way back in March of 2014.)

These are fascinating times.

(07-10-2015, 04:53 PM)Duchess Wrote:

I would think anyone with ambition/drive would be a capitalist. I'm not working for my health, I work so I can have my stuff and maybe pay someone to paint the garage door. I'm materialistic too, I like my things.

I agree. In theory...I'd like to think I'm a spiritual person but in practice...I just ordered more girl clothes from Walmart.

(07-11-2015, 08:15 PM)Clang McFly Wrote: I'd like to think I'm a spiritual person but in practice...I just ordered more girl clothes from Walmart.

I could argue about that. I don't know why one would have to be either one or the other. You can be a spiritual, God loving person and still be a driven, hardworking individual who likes money.

I like the smell and the atmosphere in a Catholic church, something about it makes me feel meek and very small and glad to be alive knowing life is just the beginning. Its a humbling place, serene and quiet allowing meditation and inner turmoil to cease. I should go more often. The place also scares me as I'm not perfect and feel I should be in such a venue.

(07-12-2015, 05:36 AM)Duchess Wrote:

(07-11-2015, 08:15 PM)Clang McFly Wrote: I'd like to think I'm a spiritual person but in practice...I just ordered more girl clothes from Walmart.

I could argue about that. I don't know why one would have to be either one or the other. You can be a spiritual, God loving person and still be a driven, hardworking individual who likes money.

You can be both, but Jesus says it's harder to be rich and love God than it is to be poor and love God. Because love of money, making money the focus of your life, makes money your God and violates the commandments. "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

The Pope is just saying that caring about money too much is a sin. That's nothing new from a Christian perspective. Capitalism philosophically makes money the driving force of society, and that's un-Christian. It's also not how day to day reality is. You go out and work a job, try to help the people you see, and afford your lifestyle. It's just a reminder that your employment should be about service... not about making a buck. The CEO's of the multi-billion corps that consider CSR to make their company look better to make more money - those are the rich men who have a hard time entering heaven.

Cutz nailed it.

From a Scripture standpoint.

(07-12-2015, 05:36 AM)Duchess Wrote:

(07-11-2015, 08:15 PM)Clang McFly Wrote: I'd like to think I'm a spiritual person but in practice...I just ordered more girl clothes from Walmart.

I could argue about that. I don't know why one would have to be either one or the other. You can be a spiritual, God loving person and still be a driven, hardworking individual who likes money.

I can haz it all? Thank you. That eases my conscience and my Catholic guilt a lot.

(07-12-2015, 10:48 AM)Midwest Spy Wrote: Cutz nailed it.

From a Scripture standpoint.

^ High praise from the Christ-Whisperer himself; good work Cutz.

Pope Francis is not just saying that caring too much about money is a sin, though that seems to be a key concept behind what he's saying.

He's saying that unbridled capitalism is inhumane. And, whether a person or system focuses too much on money or not, it's a sin to not deliberately care for the poor and actively work to redistribute wealth and minimize inequalities. He's calling on rich and poor alike to change the world economic order and to ignite a "cultural revolution" to stop global destruction caused by climate change.

"Putting bread on the table, putting a roof over the heads of one's children, giving them health and an education, these are essential for human dignity," he said.

He urged politicians and business leaders "not to yield to an economic model which is idolatrous, which needs to sacrifice human lives on the altar of money and profit."

He urged the poor and disenfranchised to rise up against "new colonialism," including corporations, loan agencies, free trade treaties, austerity measures, and "the monopolizing of the communications media."

He said those charged with promoting economic development must ensure it had "a human face" and he blasted "the idolatry of money and the dictatorship of an impersonal economy lacking a truly human purpose."

(07-12-2015, 11:14 AM)Clang McFly Wrote: I can haz it all? Thank you. That eases my conscience and my Catholic guilt a lot.

You're welcome, my child. Have a blessed day.

I got an iced coffee at Dunkin Doughnuts yesterday and the girl at the window who looked no older than 18 told me to have a blessed day. Weird. That's usually something only old people say.