Hotd said ... Personally, I don't believe introducing all kids to gun handling in schools would solve any problems, just the opposite. If parents want to introduce their kids to guns, they should be required to provide safety training, lock their guns, and store their guns at their own expense. If they fail to do so, they should be prosecuted.


So you feel its OK to teach kids about the safety aspect of sex and or the dangers of texting and driving, but not OK to teach them guns are dangerous? That just seems kinda assbackwards to me.

What would be wrong with having a rebate or tax cut program as a incentive to gun owners so it helps prod them towards locking the guns up? The expense wouldn't be that great compared to the bottom line of what this country tosses around already. Remember when this country went digital on our TV's the gov even gave us all a kick back so we could buy those damn converts. And that wasn't a safety issue.

Why does it always boil down to do what you are told or go to jail?

There's a difference between introducing kids to gun handling and teaching them that they are dangerous and to never pick one up. I think that's what she meant, but I can't speak for her.

I wouldn't be opposed to teaching kids in school to not pick up guns because they're dangerous. I also agree that if parents do want to introduce their kids to guns and show them how to handle them properly that they should have to follow certain rules or go to jail.

I showed y'all a clip from that Dateline special about kids & guns. It's not enough to tell them guns are bad/dangerous. It must be reiterated over and over again. I daresay most kids know that guns are a big NO but that won't keep them from handling one if they should ever come across one.

(10-19-2015, 02:07 PM)F.U. Wrote: So you feel its OK to teach kids about the safety aspect of sex and or the dangers of texting and driving, but not OK to teach them guns are dangerous? That just seems kinda assbackwards to me.
I understand how it seems to you.

Yes, I feel it's OK.

To me, teaching kids sex education and driving education is preparing them for life after (and in some cases, during) high school. All kids have sex organs and most will drive (though hands on driver's ed is not part of school anymore where I'm at; it's through private driving schools now).

Anyway, handling guns is not a natural part of adulthood and shouldn't be promoted as such, in my opinion. For those parents who wish to indoctrinate their kids to guns, there are private resources offering that service; it's shouldn't be at tax payers' expense.

(10-19-2015, 02:07 PM)F.U. Wrote: What would be wrong with having a rebate or tax cut program as a incentive to gun owners so it helps prod them towards locking the guns up? The expense wouldn't be that great compared to the bottom line of what this country tosses around already. Remember when this country went digital on our TV's the gov even gave us all a kick back so we could buy those damn converts. And that wasn't a safety issue.

As I said, I could see some subsidization for a while in order to help those who already have guns and can't afford to buy a safe. And, I don't have a problem with any safe manufacturers/retailers offering rebates and discounts on their products to gun owners or anyone else. That's their business decision and the more safes in gun-bearing homes, the better. But, an ongoing "tax write-off" isn't warranted or appropriate, in my opinion.

(10-19-2015, 02:07 PM)F.U. Wrote: Why does it always boil down to do what you are told or go to jail?

It doesn't. It boils down to break the law and get caught, get charged (if the laws are enforced). You get a speeding ticket whether you hit someone or not because you broke the law and endangered other people. If you break the (hypothetical national) law and leave unsecured loaded guns in your home with children and they get ahold of them, you get charged or cited for the same reasons. That's my view of how it should work.

There are no do-overs with guns.

I'd never want a kid under the age of 12 (just picking an arbitrary number) handling one, simply because a mistake with it could be fatal.

And as well-intentioned as a parent was, is it worth your kids life to teach them how to handle a gun when they're younger than that?

They don't always listen, but there's a chance they might if you keep telling them. It's like teaching them about stranger danger and not to help some perv looking for his lost puppy. They tell the kids what to do in case of a fire ( who here can answer that one?), I don't see the harm in telling them what to do in case they come across a gun.

Failure to quote, I was responding to Duchess.

Instructing kids not to touch guns and what to do if they come across a gun is logical and fine.

Don't get into a car with a stranger, tell someone if adults touch you inappropriately, don't play with or touch guns unless your parent or a guardian is supervising you, call 911 if somebody is in danger or hurt, etc... All things that can help keep children safe and contribute to public safety.

Teaching kids how to handle guns, load them, clean them, shoot them...is not something that I think should be part of any school curriculum or something that would keep all kids or the public safer. If some parents want to introduce their children to the gun hobby, they can do all of those things at home or send them to private classes without subjecting all children to something that a good percentage of parents would rather keep away from their children.

(10-19-2015, 02:44 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(10-19-2015, 02:07 PM)F.U. Wrote: So you feel its OK to teach kids about the safety aspect of sex and or the dangers of texting and driving, but not OK to teach them guns are dangerous? That just seems kinda assbackwards to me.
I understand how it seems to you.

Yes, I feel it's OK.

To me, teaching kids sex education and driving education is preparing them for life after (and in some cases, during) high school. All kids have sex organs and most will drive (though hands on driver's ed is not part of school anymore where I'm at; it's through private driving schools now).

Anyway, handling guns is not a natural part of adulthood and shouldn't be promoted as such, in my opinion. For those parents who wish to indoctrinate their kids to guns, there are private resources offering that service; it's shouldn't be at tax payers' expense.

(10-19-2015, 02:07 PM)F.U. Wrote: What would be wrong with having a rebate or tax cut program as a incentive to gun owners so it helps prod them towards locking the guns up? The expense wouldn't be that great compared to the bottom line of what this country tosses around already. Remember when this country went digital on our TV's the gov even gave us all a kick back so we could buy those damn converts. And that wasn't a safety issue.

As I said, I could see some subsidization for a while in order to help those who already have guns and can't afford to buy a safe. And, I don't have a problem with any safe manufacturers/retailers offering rebates and discounts on their products to gun owners or anyone else. That's their business decision and the more safes in gun-bearing homes, the better. But, an ongoing "tax write-off" isn't warranted or appropriate, in my opinion.

(10-19-2015, 02:07 PM)F.U. Wrote: Why does it always boil down to do what you are told or go to jail?

It doesn't. It boils down to break the law and get caught, get charged (if the laws are enforced). You get a speeding ticket whether you hit someone or not because you broke the law and endangered other people. If you break the (hypothetical national) law and leave unsecured loaded guns in your home with children and they get ahold of them, you get charged or cited for the same reasons. That's my view of how it should work.

But guns are a part of life and should be treated as such. If they were not a part of life we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't think Firearm safety education would solve the issue, but it wouldn't hurt. The more they hear about the dangers the more it will sink in. Now I know there would be a issue teaching anything having to do with guns in our school system. I mean the way people cant even wear a shirt with a pic of a gun on it, or even the entire pop tart BS, but maybe a off campus safety course taught by licensed/permitted adults would be worth while. It might not be a part of the curriculum but make it accessible.


I agree that the rebate/tax cut or what ever we want it shouldn't be a ongoing thing. I should have made myself clearer on that. I think it would be a good use of taxpayers $'s to look at a system like this. Maybe do a dollar for dollar match with the gun owner or something, but anything would make guys like me look at the system and quite possibly use it. Maybe do a setup where the gov pays the first couple hundred and then matches you dollar for dollar. That way a person that only had a few guns could get a inexpensive safe for little or nothing and guys like me that will need multiple safes will be able to afford them.


I think if you are going to make a law requiring guns to be locked up then we should look twice at my comment about safes above.

(10-19-2015, 03:16 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Instructing kids not to touch guns and what to do if they come across a gun is logical and fine.

Don't get into a car with a stranger, tell someone if adults touch you inappropriately, don't play with or touch guns unless your parent or a guardian is supervising you, call 911 if somebody is in danger or hurt, etc... All things that can help keep children safe and contribute to public safety.

Teaching kids how to handle guns, load them, clean them, shoot them...is not something that I think should be part of any school curriculum or something that would keep all kids or the public safer. If some parents want to introduce their children to the gun hobby, they can do all of those things at home or send them to private classes without subjecting all children to something that a good percentage of parents would rather keep away from their children.

I guess I didn't make myself clear with my first couple posts. What I was actually trying to say is basically what you said. Teach them about the dangers of guns and what to do if the come across one. Not so much load and clean.


ETA... I just went back and reread my post and I think I was pretty clear. I said,
Develop and use a firearm safety program for the youth. I feel education is a big key. If we can talk to the kids about safe sex, texting and driving , etc. We should be talking to them about firearms as well.
A SAFETY program. Not a introduction to firearms class.

Gun handling isn't a way of life for many millions of people in this country. However, gun violence and the threat it poses to public safety is a major problem for a large portion of the concerned citizens in this country.

You say teaching kids gun safety (beyond telling them to keep their hands off guns unless permitted/supervised by a responsible adult) won't help resolve gun violence in this country. I agree completely.

You say teaching kids gun safety (beyond telling them to keep their hands off guns unless permitted/supervised by a responsible adult) couldn't hurt. I think it might well hurt. We don't need more kids being indoctrinated to guns; something which is not a natural part of life for many. Gun handling doesn't belong in schools, in my strong opinion.

As for your wish for special accommodations to be made for extreme gun enthusiasts or collectors, if you can't afford to store all of your arms safely in a house where children are present some or all of the time, sell some of your guns so that you can afford proper storage and be a responsible law-abiding adult and gun owner. I don't think that's unreasonable.

And here is part of the problem. I bend and change my way of thinking just to try and help with the situation and you are wanting more. Nothing gets said about the good points of my compromising post, just the parts that aren't liked. Now granted it is a small amount but you don't seam to be happy with my compromises. Its stuff like this that makes myself and other gun enthusiasts say fuck it. We wont bend a inch.

You use the word indoctrinated and I giggle. Its not like the kids don't see guns every day of their life. On tv, in their games. They even get slapped in the face every day with it when they arrive at the soft target educational buildings with the kill zone stickers and signs on their doors.

ETA... Gun handling IS a way of life for many. So it should be discussed.

Sorry F.U. I was posting at the same time.

I thought you were talking about something beyond the gun safety verbiage that already exists.

I think the Eddie Eagle and similar talking points are good. Continuing such education in more schools is no problem, of course.


K through 4^th graders what to do if they ever come across a gun…

1. STOP! This first step is crucial. Stopping first allows your child the time he or she needs to remember the rest of the safety instructions.

2. Don’t Touch. A firearm that is not touched or disturbed is unlikely to fire and otherwise endanger your child or other people.

3. Run Away. This removes the temptation to touch the firearm as well as the danger that another person may negligently cause it to fire.

4. Tell A Grown-up. Children should seek a trustworthy adult, neighbor, relative or teacher – if a parent or guardian is not available.

https://eddieeagle.nra.org/

I agree that's ^ helpful and could help prevent shootings by children, especially if repeated at home. It definitely wouldn't hurt.

OK, I guess we are on the same page with this then.

ETA... I was surprised at how much was added to the Eddie Eagle system. The entire "friends" cast is new and it looks like they were trying to give every child a character that they could personally relate to. I wish they would start using this system more. Even if it is just by parents showing their children the videos that you and I posted here. I think it is a great place to start. At minimum it will open up dialog between parents and children.
I want to ask M.S. his opinions on this program.

(10-19-2015, 02:30 PM)Duchess Wrote:

I showed y'all a clip from that Dateline special about kids & guns. It's not enough to tell them guns are bad/dangerous. It must be reiterated over and over again. I daresay most kids know that guns are a big NO but that won't keep them from handling one if they should ever come across one.

I have seen these Dateline specials. The parents stand in the background totally shocked that their child (after having been warned about firearms) not only picked up the gun, but pointed it at others....there seems to be this fascination with guns regardless of age and warnings.

Likewise, when children are warned about stranger danger, etc. Dateline has done specials wherein, the child goes off with stranger to look for his missing puppy. Again, the shocked parents stand behind the scenes with the producers of the show and can't believe their child actually went off with a stranger.

Warnings are very often useless when dealing with children....they aren't mature enough to call in good judgement, whether it be danger from a stranger, a firearm, etc....The shows which have been featured on Dateline, 20/20, etc. should serve as a reminder to everyone that warnings to children are, most often, totally useless.

(10-19-2015, 04:19 PM)blueberryhill Wrote:

(10-19-2015, 02:30 PM)Duchess Wrote:

I showed y'all a clip from that Dateline special about kids & guns. It's not enough to tell them guns are bad/dangerous. It must be reiterated over and over again. I daresay most kids know that guns are a big NO but that won't keep them from handling one if they should ever come across one.

I have seen these Dateline specials. The parents stand in the background totally shocked that their child (after having been warned about firearms) not only picked up the gun, but pointed it at others....there seems to be this fascination with guns regardless of age and warnings.

Likewise, when children are warned about stranger danger, etc. Dateline has done specials wherein, the child goes off with stranger to look for his missing puppy. Again, the shocked parents stand behind the scenes with the producers of the show and can't believe their child actually went off with a stranger.

Warnings are very often useless when dealing with children....they aren't mature enough to call in good judgement, whether it be danger from a stranger, a firearm, etc....The shows which have been featured on Dateline, 20/20, etc. should serve as a reminder to everyone that warnings to children are, most often, totally useless.

Now its time I use a old line that is often used when referring to adding any new laws to firearm ownership. If it saves only 1 life it is worth the effort.

(10-19-2015, 04:00 PM)F.U. Wrote: And here is part of the problem. I bend and change my way of thinking just to try and help with the situation and you are wanting more. Nothing gets said about the good points of my compromising post, just the parts that aren't liked. Now granted it is a small amount but you don't seam to be happy with my compromises. Its stuff like this that makes myself and other gun enthusiasts say fuck it. We wont bend a inch.

You use the word indoctrinated and I giggle. Its not like the kids don't see guns every day of their life. On tv, in their games. They even get slapped in the face every day with it when they arrive at the soft target educational buildings with the kill zone stickers and signs on their doors.

ETA... Gun handling IS a way of life for many. So it should be discussed.

See my last post; it might help clarify. Posting at the same time again.

Still, F.U., if not getting patted on the back in the course of discussion makes you say "fuck it", it doesn't seem likely to me that you were all that sincere anyway (and that's not a problem for me).

(10-19-2015, 04:19 PM)blueberryhill Wrote:

(10-19-2015, 02:30 PM)Duchess Wrote:

I showed y'all a clip from that Dateline special about kids & guns. It's not enough to tell them guns are bad/dangerous. It must be reiterated over and over again. I daresay most kids know that guns are a big NO but that won't keep them from handling one if they should ever come across one.

I have seen these Dateline specials. The parents stand in the background totally shocked that their child (after having been warned about firearms) not only picked up the gun, but pointed it at others....there seems to be this fascination with guns regardless of age and warnings.

Likewise, when children are warned about stranger danger, etc. Dateline has done specials wherein, the child goes off with stranger to look for his missing puppy. Again, the shocked parents stand behind the scenes with the producers of the show and can't believe their child actually went off with a stranger.

Warnings are very often useless when dealing with children....they aren't mature enough to call in good judgement, whether it be danger from a stranger, a firearm, etc....The shows which have been featured on Dateline, 20/20, etc. should serve as a reminder to everyone that warnings to children are, most often, totally useless.

And yet I made it this far in life after being around firearms my whole childhood. I had unabated access to them too. Amazing...

I think what BBH means ( yeah, I love to talk for people, do something about it) is that warnings of guns being dangerous are fine and may even help, but more importantly is that adults need to be responsible and ensure that their guns are properly locked up when children are around because warnings don't always work. I don't think that's unreasonable.

(10-19-2015, 04:26 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(10-19-2015, 04:00 PM)F.U. Wrote: And here is part of the problem. I bend and change my way of thinking just to try and help with the situation and you are wanting more. Nothing gets said about the good points of my compromising post, just the parts that aren't liked. Now granted it is a small amount but you don't seam to be happy with my compromises. Its stuff like this that makes myself and other gun enthusiasts say fuck it. We wont bend a inch.

You use the word indoctrinated and I giggle. Its not like the kids don't see guns every day of their life. On tv, in their games. They even get slapped in the face every day with it when they arrive at the soft target educational buildings with the kill zone stickers and signs on their doors.

ETA... Gun handling IS a way of life for many. So it should be discussed.

See my last post; it might help clarify. Posting at the same time again.

Still, F.U., if not getting patted on the back in the course of discussion makes you say "fuck it", it doesn't seem likely to me that you were all that sincere anyway (and that's not a problem for me).

Yes I seen we were both typing away at the same time.


Its not about getting patted on the back. Its about compromise. One side bends a little then the other side does. That's how it works. Not one side bends and then the other says bend a little more.
And yes, I was being sincere.

(10-19-2015, 04:30 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote:

(10-19-2015, 04:19 PM)blueberryhill Wrote:

(10-19-2015, 02:30 PM)Duchess Wrote:

I showed y'all a clip from that Dateline special about kids & guns. It's not enough to tell them guns are bad/dangerous. It must be reiterated over and over again. I daresay most kids know that guns are a big NO but that won't keep them from handling one if they should ever come across one.

I have seen these Dateline specials. The parents stand in the background totally shocked that their child (after having been warned about firearms) not only picked up the gun, but pointed it at others....there seems to be this fascination with guns regardless of age and warnings.

Likewise, when children are warned about stranger danger, etc. Dateline has done specials wherein, the child goes off with stranger to look for his missing puppy. Again, the shocked parents stand behind the scenes with the producers of the show and can't believe their child actually went off with a stranger.

Warnings are very often useless when dealing with children....they aren't mature enough to call in good judgement, whether it be danger from a stranger, a firearm, etc....The shows which have been featured on Dateline, 20/20, etc. should serve as a reminder to everyone that warnings to children are, most often, totally useless.

And yet I made it this far in life after being around firearms my whole childhood. I had unabated access to them too. Amazing...

As did myself and my children and now my grand children. Every member of my family as far back as I can remember has owned their own firearm starting at age 7. As well as the ammo for it.
However, now I have actually taken position of the firearms owned by my children and grand children. Not because of their gun handling techniques, but rather because one child is going through a addiction issue and the other is dealing with PTSD. I felt it was my duty to take charge and remove a potential threat to both of them [and others], at least for a while.