Well, you may see me being stupid in the future Cutz. But, not on this one.

This is the complete 180, as posted upthread:
-Trump on Tuesday night: I think there should be some form of punishment for women who get illegal abortions.
-Trump on Wednesday morning: I don't think there should be any form of punishment for women who get illegal abortions.

It's not an opinion that he reversed his position when it comes to the woman Cutz, it's a fact.

I haven't personally seen or heard even Trump or his camp denying that fact. I've just seen them write it off to him being tired, not being a politician, media trickery and such.

As for the doctor being punished, doctors are always subject to being punished for performing illegal procedures. Thus, I assume Trump would have considered both the woman and the doctor punishable in the first scenario, though he didn't mention the doctor and wasn't asked about it. He did mention the doctor in this second position statement, after absolving the woman of punishment. I don't consider that he reversed his position when it comes to the abortion doctor, just the abortion patient.

(04-01-2016, 11:59 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: It's not an opinion that he reversed his position when it comes to the woman Cutz, it's a fact.

So you said he's uninformed. Or he's weak.

That's a complete 180. First you said his mental capacity was lacking, then you said his mental capacity was fine. First you said his backbone was rigid, then you said he was lacking backbone. You're flip flopping all over the place.

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.

If you need to claim something is a fact, it's probably not a fact. If you want to play dumb, I can too.

What? That doesn't even make sense, Cutz.

Look, if Trump had said "well, I think either the doctor or the woman should be punished" on Tuesday and then said "well, I think only the doctor should be punished" on Wednesday, it wouldn't have been a reversal and I wouldn't have called it one.

If that had been the case, your comparison of Trump's reversal and my either/or opinion as to the reasons some people change position frequently depending on reaction would be applicable. But, that wasn't the case, so your comparison doesn't apply. I think you already know that though.

(04-01-2016, 12:12 PM)Cutz Wrote:

(04-01-2016, 11:59 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: It's not an opinion that he reversed his position when it comes to the woman Cutz, it's a fact.

So you said he's uninformed. Or he's weak.

That's a complete 180. First you said his mental capacity was lacking, then you said his mental capacity was fine. First you said his backbone was rigid, then you said he was lacking backbone. You're flip flopping all over the place.

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.

If you need to claim something is a fact, it's probably not a fact. If you want to play dumb, I can too.

She does that a lot actually.

Pffft. That's your M.O. Gunnar, the proof of which is all over the board.

If I get the facts wrong, and I sometimes do, I just say so and correct them. If I'm convinced to reverse my position/opinion, I just say so and why. It's not difficult and the proof is all over the board.

Trump reversed his position on this one to align with the Pro-Life leaders. Maybe he did it because he was initially uninformed of their firm stance that the woman is always a victim and he agrees with their criticism of his original position. Maybe he disagrees with them, but isn't willing to stick to his guns because he wants their support and doesn't want to alienate more women. I don't know why he reversed his position on punishing women for illegal abortions, just that he did.

He might have been tired. He's not held a political office before. He might not have been prepared to be pushed to answer by Anderson and/or Matthews. Regardless, there's no argument that he reversed his position. He reverses and modifies his positions on the same issues a lot, much more than the other candidates. I don't care if you and Cutz think it's no big deal and consider him a viable candidate anyway or if you don't acknowledge/agree that he does it. I don't consider him a viable candidate for that and other reasons. Difference of opinion.

If Cutz wants to focus on proving that HOTD is stupid and weak because he sees it differently, and you want to project your weaknesses on to me because that's just you, you boys can go to town on it and I won't interfere.

(04-01-2016, 01:11 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Pffft. That's your M.O. Gunnar, the proof of which is all over the board.

If I get the facts wrong, and I sometimes do, I just say so and correct them. If I'm convinced to reverse my position/opinion, I just say so and why. It's not difficult and the proof is all over the board.

Trump reversed his position on this one to align with the Pro-Life leaders. Maybe he did it because he was initially uninformed of their firm stance that the woman is always a victim and he agrees with their criticism of his original position. Maybe he disagrees with them, but isn't willing to stick to his guns because he wants their support and doesn't want to alienate more women. I don't know why he reversed his position on punishing women for illegal abortions, just that he did.

He might have been tired. He's not held a political office before. He might not have been prepared to be pushed to answer by Anderson and/or Matthews. Regardless, there's no argument that he reversed his position. He reverses and and modifies his positions on the same issues a lot, much more than the other candidates. I don't care if you and Cutz think it's no big deal and consider him a viable candidate anyway or if you don't acknowledge/agree that he does it. I don't consider him a viable candidate for that and other reasons. Difference of opinion.

If Cutz wants to focus on proving that HOTD is stupid and weak because he sees it differently, and you want to project your weaknesses on to me because that's just you, you boys can go to town on it and I won't interfere.

TLDNR flip flopper.

(04-01-2016, 05:44 AM)Duchess Wrote: I just have an aversion to the word victim and I particularly don't like it in this case as the victim is the one making the decision. I can't know this of course but I feel confident that all those "victims" would own their decision. It shows poor judgement for a group of people to absolve the decision maker.[/i][/size]

I don't agree that women who choose to have abortions are all victims either. I think that premise is insulting to women (and their male partners, when involved in the decision making).

Women (and their male partners) are responsible for that decision in my view as well.

Some women are certainly victims of rape, incest, domestic violence and such though... and choose or are forced to have an abortion.

Anyway, I agreed more with Trump's original statement than I do with the Pro-Life victim position.

But, I don't think abortion should be illegal anyhow, except for possibly late term abortions.

I agreed with his original position, if abortion is made illegal after a certain point and a woman has one anyway I think she should be held accountable and obviously the doctor who performed it also. I don't view the woman as a victim. The fact that he changed his stance on it after getting a bunch of shit isn't a big deal to me. Not on this particular issue.

We need to quit discussing abortion as it pertains to Donald Trump. It is a waste of time......He doesn't remember what he says from day to day. He improvises a lot depending on his audience and sometimes contradicts himself in one sentence.....This should be apparent to just about anyone who reads the news and or does any bit of research....or watches this dickhead on TV. If you have watched any of his recent interviews, you will realize that Trump is not a very smart, educated person.....Anderson Cooper calls him out for acting like a 5 year old is just one little example.

I also don't know why old male farts/politicians want to have control over a woman's body. It is none of the Government's business what a woman does with her body. It is between her and her Physician....Politics needs to stay out of the bedroom.....Let the woman decide if she wants to be called a victim, survivor, or maybe not mentioned at all cuz it is not any of my business.....period.......What if the Government were trying to control a man's body, e.g., the penis, or whether you could freely get a
vasectomy without permission of your significant other, or whether you could purchase drugs like Viagra without permission from wife, partner, etc. I would agree that with all the birth control methods available in this time in history, abortion maybe shouldn't be necessary, but poor people have unprotected sex, teenagers who are too embarrassed to purchase birth control, etc......They lack resources for this info and product and then every birth control method is not 100% effective...there will always be that small percentage where it fails.....

In the end, no woman wants to have an abortion (normally), but it should be pro-choice and not pro-abortion......We should quit treating women like 2^nd class citizens. Would be different World if men carried the baby for 9 months........

(04-01-2016, 06:02 PM)blueberryhill Wrote: We need to quit discussing abortion as it pertains to Donald Trump. It is a waste of time......He doesn't remember what he says from day to day. He improvises a lot depending on his audience and sometimes contradicts himself in one sentence.....This should be apparent to just about anyone who reads the news and or does any bit of research....or watches this dickhead on TV. If you have watched any of his recent interviews, you will realize that Trump is not a very smart, educated person.....Anderson Cooper calls him out for acting like a 5 year old is just one little example.

I also don't know why old male farts/politicians want to have control over a woman's body. It is none of the Government's business what a woman does with her body. It is between her and her Physician....Politics needs to stay out of the bedroom.....Let the woman decide if she wants to be called a victim, survivor, or maybe not mentioned at all cuz it is not any of my business.....period.......What if the Government were trying to control a man's body, e.g., the penis, or whether you could freely get a
vasectomy without permission of your significant other, or whether you could purchase drugs like Viagra without permission from wife, partner, etc. I would agree that with all the birth control methods available in this time in history, abortion maybe shouldn't be necessary, but poor people have unprotected sex, teenagers who are too embarrassed to purchase birth control, etc......They lack resources for this info and product and then every birth control method is not 100% effective...there will always be that small percentage where it fails.....

In the end, no woman wants to have an abortion (normally), but it should be pro-choice and not pro-abortion......We should quit treating women like 2^nd class citizens. Would be different World if men carried the baby for 9 months........

So... Only poor people have unprotected sex? Please explain? And while you're at it, come on into the 21^st century, because kids today are not too embarrassed and my daughter knows more about birth control and all of the different choices available to her than I do thanks to the internet.

Pro-Lifers should be on a Ever-Invasive-Post-911-Gov't Dossier and forced to take the unwanted child they have demanded the mother whose pregnancy they forced to completion. Then compensate her for the theft of her right to control her own body.

(04-01-2016, 06:17 PM)ZEROSPHERES Wrote: Pro-Lifers should be on a Ever-Invasive-Post-911-Gov't Dossier and forced to take the unwanted child they have demanded the mother whose pregnancy they forced to completion. Then compensate her for the theft of her right to control her own body.

You do realize if that were the case, they'd raise those children to be pro-lifers right?

BG, I pity those kids. Unwanted, and then conscripted into the ranks of the Pro-Life movement.

(04-01-2016, 06:27 PM)ZEROSPHERES Wrote: BG, I pity those kids. Unwanted, and then conscripted into the ranks of the Pro-Life movement.

So in reality not very practical.

(04-01-2016, 06:02 PM)blueberryhill Wrote: We need to quit discussing abortion as it pertains to Donald Trump. It is a waste of time......He doesn't remember what he says from day to day. He improvises a lot depending on his audience and sometimes contradicts himself in one sentence.....This should be apparent to just about anyone who reads the news and or does any bit of research....or watches this dickhead on TV. If you have watched any of his recent interviews, you will realize that Trump is not a very smart, educated person.....Anderson Cooper calls him out for acting like a 5 year old is just one little example.

I also don't know why old male farts/politicians want to have control over a woman's body. It is none of the Government's business what a woman does with her body. It is between her and her Physician....Politics needs to stay out of the bedroom.....Let the woman decide if she wants to be called a victim, survivor, or maybe not mentioned at all cuz it is not any of my business.....period.......What if the Government were trying to control a man's body, e.g., the penis, or whether you could freely get a
vasectomy without permission of your significant other, or whether you could purchase drugs like Viagra without permission from wife, partner, etc. I would agree that with all the birth control methods available in this time in history, abortion maybe shouldn't be necessary, but poor people have unprotected sex, teenagers who are too embarrassed to purchase birth control, etc......They lack resources for this info and product and then every birth control method is not 100% effective...there will always be that small percentage where it fails.....

In the end, no woman wants to have an abortion (normally), but it should be pro-choice and not pro-abortion......We should quit treating women like 2^nd class citizens. Would be different World if men carried the baby for 9 months........

I don't think Donald trump gives a shit about abortions to be honest. He just had to answer the question and when he said the wrong thing he got shit for it so he was advised to change it. I think if you're worried about abortion being made illegal he's the least candidate you need to worry about with the republicans, Cruz on the other hand is more worrisome when it comes to that issue.

(04-01-2016, 06:33 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote:

(04-01-2016, 06:27 PM)ZEROSPHERES Wrote: BG, I pity those kids. Unwanted, and then conscripted into the ranks of the Pro-Life movement.

So in reality not very practical.

It may be a way to elicit compassion for the plight of the mother when the Pro-Lifers are straddled with the unwanted child. It may help them to reconsider their point of view.

(04-01-2016, 06:13 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote:

(04-01-2016, 06:02 PM)blueberryhill Wrote: We need to quit discussing abortion as it pertains to Donald Trump. It is a waste of time......He doesn't remember what he says from day to day. He improvises a lot depending on his audience and sometimes contradicts himself in one sentence.....This should be apparent to just about anyone who reads the news and or does any bit of research....or watches this dickhead on TV. If you have watched any of his recent interviews, you will realize that Trump is not a very smart, educated person.....Anderson Cooper calls him out for acting like a 5 year old is just one little example.

I also don't know why old male farts/politicians want to have control over a woman's body. It is none of the Government's business what a woman does with her body. It is between her and her Physician....Politics needs to stay out of the bedroom.....Let the woman decide if she wants to be called a victim, survivor, or maybe not mentioned at all cuz it is not any of my business.....period.......What if the Government were trying to control a man's body, e.g., the penis, or whether you could freely get a
vasectomy without permission of your significant other, or whether you could purchase drugs like Viagra without permission from wife, partner, etc. I would agree that with all the birth control methods available in this time in history, abortion maybe shouldn't be necessary, but poor people have unprotected sex, teenagers who are too embarrassed to purchase birth control, etc......They lack resources for this info and product and then every birth control method is not 100% effective...there will always be that small percentage where it fails.....

In the end, no woman wants to have an abortion (normally), but it should be pro-choice and not pro-abortion......We should quit treating women like 2^nd class citizens. Would be different World if men carried the baby for 9 months........

So... Only poor people have unprotected sex? Please explain? And while you're at it, come on into the 21^st century, because kids today are not too embarrassed and my daughter knows more about birth control and all of the different choices available to her than I do thanks to the internet.

BG, why are you being so obtuse? I was using examples of why not everyone has access to birth control. I don't give a shit what personal experience you quote on here. I am here to tell you that there are a lot of teenagers who are too embarrassed to buy condoms, etc...
You telling me to come to the 21^st century is really laughable. ..If I had my way, I would be standing on street corners, giving away condoms, and free birth control pills, etc......Than God for Planned Parenthood!

Yes, poor people don't have money to buy condoms, or see doctor for prescription of birth control.......In my own family, I will be a grandmother again in Sep thanks to someone not being able to afford to condoms or other means of birth control.....knowledge about birth control doesn't mean your teenager will follow through and be responsible. I better add disclaimer.....not your daughter, but teenagers in general...........My grandchild cannot afford a child, but they are going to have the baby and they will now need financial assistance to raise child.

(04-01-2016, 06:51 PM)sally Wrote: I don't think Donald trump gives a shit about abortions to be honest. He just had to answer the question and when he said the wrong thing he got shit for it so he was advised to change it. I think if you're worried about abortion being made illegal he's the least candidate you need to worry about with the republicans, Cruz on the other hand is more worrisome when it comes to that issue.

I think you're right and get the same sense that Trump probably doesn't care all that much about the abortion issue.

Ted Cruz and other conservatives share our perception and have been using Trump's changing stance on abortion as proof that he's not committed and conservative enough to be running on the Republican ticket, for over a year now. Conservative Republicans care a lot about abortion and have a firm Pro-Life position on it; they're committed to getting Roe vs. Wade overturned by the Supreme Court.

So, it surprised me that Trump wasn't well-versed to answer all questions about abortion and the Pro-Life stance, given the scrutiny he was already under about it.

Trump was first very pro-choice. Then he said the issue of abortion legality should be left to the states. Then he said he'd switched to being firmly pro-life, with a couple of exceptions allowing abortions (usually meaning rape, incest, woman's life). Then, this week he confirmed that that as a pro-lifer he supports banning abortions (not just late term abortions) with exceptions -- and, for the first time, said that he supports punishing a woman who gets an illegal abortion. Then he reversed and said he doesn't support punishing the woman and that he considers her a victim.

Cruz sure is making good use of the flip flop, proclaiming it validation of his assertion that Trump is not truly Pro-Life and that Trump does not having an adequate grasp of Republican key issues.

Today, Trump addressed his reversal on punishing the woman. He told FOX that he misspoke during the Matthews interview because the interview was so long and convoluted. Link: http://www.lifenews.com/2016/04/01/donal...-question/

Anyway, I don't know if Trump would really push for an abortion ban. But, since he apparently now feels it's important to adhere to the official Pro-Life leaders' philosophy and he says he supports a ban, I can't rule it out. I don't know where he stands.

Do presidents even have any control over abortion?