How did it get from the Saudis killing someone to Trump being the reason for it? 

Have you read the thread Mags? There are a lot of posts upthread containing people's opinions regarding how Trump fits into this tragedy.

(10-19-2018, 11:36 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Yeah, if MBS doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks of him, the hole in his pocket is going to swiftly continue widening until its completely empty.

Saudi Arabia desperately needs to diversify its economy so as not to be so reliant on fuel only.

MBS's  whole strategy was to convince the world (and its investors) that he was committed to cleaning up corruption and leading his country in a more progressive direction in terms of civil liberties and human rights.  

But, his actions are sending precisely the opposite message and have already discouraged investment and eroded goodwill with other countries.

Facilitating a power coup was was a bold and questionable way to start the reform process, but a lot of people gave him the benefit of the doubt.  

Kidnapping the Prime Minister of Lebanon was outrageous, but there was very little outrage expressed (at least I didn't read much about it).  

Ordering and/or covering up the assassination of a journalist because he was advocating for more and truer reform is hopefully the last straw for MBS, people do not seem willing to let it slide.

I had not heard of that.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/sau...58171.html

That's an opinion piece by Fisk, Biggie.

The link below contains more information regarding the conflicts and fails carried out with other countries in the short time since MBS assumed power.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/m...19153.html

Evidence and Searches

Turkish authorities are busy searching a forest outside Istanbul for Jamal Khashoggi's remains.  CCTV caught a Saudi diplomatic vehicle in the area shortly after Khashoggi was reported missing.

The Turkish newspaper Sabah has also released photographs from the day of the disappearance.



Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb ^, a frequent companion of Saudi Arabia’s crown prince, in surveillance footage from the day of Jamal Khashoggi’s disappearance inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

Time stamps on the photographs, which Turkish newspaper Sabah said had been taken from closed-circuit television, showed Mr. Mutreb entering the Saudi consulate at 9:55 a.m., at the consul general’s home at 4:45 p.m., leaving an Istanbul hotel at 5:15 p.m., and at the airport at 5:58 p.m. to leave Turkey.

The Saudi government has released no explanation and asserts it's investigating the matter.

The Turkish government has been leaking details in the domestic press that suggest that a 15-member hit team from Saudi Arabia, including Mr. Mutreb, assassinated Mr. Khashoggi inside the consulate, severing his fingers and decapitating and dismembering him.

On Tuesday, The New York Times linked Mr. Mutreb and at least three others among the 15 suspects to Crown Prince Mohammed’s security detail. Mr. Mutreb had previously been seen in photographs of the crown prince’s three-week visit to the United States this year.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/world...rabia.html

Saudi state media has confirmed that Jamal Khashoggi is dead and 18 Saudi nationals have been detained.

(10-19-2018, 06:17 PM)Duchess Wrote: Saudi state media has confirmed that Jamal Khashoggi is dead and 18 Saudi nationals have been detained.

17 days............. and the best Saudi Arabia could come up with is that Khashoggi died after a 'discussion', which turned into a 'quarrel', which led to 'fighting by hand', which led to Khashoggi's death.

Yet another ridiculous story/claim from the Saudis.

The story keeps changing and it doesn't get any more believable with each attempt to explain new evidence leaked by Turkey.

So, why did Saudi intelligence officers/employees fly to Turkey and confront Khashoggi at the consulate when he was just there to pick up marriage docs if they weren't acting on government orders?  

And, where is Khashoggi's body?

And, why did the Saudis lie and initially say that Khashoggi left the consulate alive and well?

This Saudi soddi (some other dudes did it) bullshit story won't fly with any objective observers and decent politicians anywhere, that's for sure.

HotD, have you heard that Jared Kushner, with the US intelligence he had access to, may have compiled an enemies list and turned it over to the prince? On one hand I want to say, yeah, right, but on the other, I have learned not to put anything past that mob family. Money is their God and it rules them.

To be clear, none of that ^^^^^^ has been reported as fact.

Have you heard that Trump had the entire thing filmed and he and his entire family have watched it while eating popcorn. 

I can hardly wait to make you eat some words one day. I'm super excited just imagining it!  

This stupid insistence that Trump is working hard for "the people" after decades of a public life showing what a greedy, venal and corrupt man he is will never stop amazing me.

(10-20-2018, 11:14 AM)Duchess Wrote: HotD, have you heard that Jared Kushner, with the US intelligence he had access to, may have compiled an enemies list and turned it over to the prince? On one hand I want to say, yeah, right, but on the other, I have learned not to put anything past that mob family. Money is their God and it rules them.

To be clear, none of that ^^^^^^ has been reported as fact.

I did read the 'enemies list' rumor sometime back, but didn't see any evidence to back it up.  

Did you see that Democratic Representative Joaquin Castro tried to tie that rumor to Khashoggi's murder during an interview yesterday?  

Castro is sometimes right on the issues, but often shoots himself in the foot by going too far.  His dramatics irritate me.

I also read that Trump, unsurprisingly, told reporters he found the Saudis ridiculous scapegoat cover story to be "credible".

All the comments I've read by other elected leaders in the U.S. and elsewhere indicate they find the story non-credible.

MBS has proven himself to be a dangerous loose cannon, to me. Trump and Kushner are going to regret promoting MBS as the Saudi savior and giving him so much leverage in the Middle East power balance.

Israel is tied to MBS as well, an alliance forged to counter Iran's power in the region. Netanyahu isn't speaking publicly about the Khashoggi murder nor the global condemnation of Saudi Arabia's handling of it.

The leadership in Iran is also staying mum on the Khashoggi incident. It can only help the more moderate Iranian leaders who've long dealt with the U.S. pretending like Saudi Arabia isn't as big a sponsor of what the US labels 'terrorism' as Iran.

Turkey has reportedly not yet turned over the audio and video evidence of Khashoggi's murder. Erdogan is a ruthless dictator himself and has been fucked over in his relationship with the U.S. by MBS. Erdogan is holding all the cards right now.

Without Turkey, the Saudis would never have admitted that Khashoggi was murdered by Saudis , no doubt about that. I hope Erdogan doesn't make a deal with Saudi Arabia and the U.S. to bury evidence (for a huge price).

(10-20-2018, 01:02 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Did you see that Democratic Representative Joaquin Castro tried to tie that rumor to Khashoggi's murder during an interview yesterday? 

No, I didn't see that but I did see some people discussing Kushner's access to intelligence & his ties to the prince which led to talk of money. I don't think Kushner is above being enticed by money. Remember, this is the guy who tried to facilitate a secret back channel to the Kremlin in order to communicate with them privately. He's untrustworthy.

Yeah, I don't put much past Trump or Kushner based on what we know to be true.

But, Castro and other elected Democrats have enough ammunition to make their points based on confirmed facts without touting conspiracy theories. Going there only reduces their credibility, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm interested to see if Republican U.S. congresspersons stick to their guns and continue to join Democratic congresspersons in pushing for a U.S. investigation and/or sanctioning Saudi Arabia under the Magnitski Act.

Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi criticized Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's 'authoritarian rule' shortly before his death, in an interview published today following confirmation he died at the kingdom's Istanbul consulate.

The self-exiled 59-year-old also described some of the prince's aides, including since-dismissed media adviser Saud al-Qahtani, as 'very thuggish', saying that 'people fear them... you challenge them, you might end up in prison'.

Speaking off the record to a Newsweek journalist working on a story about the Saudi leadership, Khashoggi reiterated that he did not view himself as 'an opposition' - he just wanted 'a better Saudi Arabia'.

When asked if the international community could exert pressure on the crown prince, and protect the Saudi people from their ruthless leader, Jamal replied, 'That is our only hope.'

https://www.newsweek.com/jamal-khashoggi...ca-1178489
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...aides.html

UPDATE

Europe


The EU's Foreign Office issued a joint statement today from Britain, Germany and France condemning Khashoggi's killing, saying there is an 'urgent need for clarification of exactly what happened.'

They said the 'hypotheses' proposed so far in the Saudi investigation needs to be backed by facts to be considered credible' and added that 'nothing can justify this killing and we condemn it in the strongest possible terms'. ‎

'Defending freedom of expression and a free press are key priorities for Germany, the United Kingdom and France‎. The threatening, attacking or killing of journalists, under any circumstances, is unacceptable and of utmost concern to our three nations.'

'We thus stress that more efforts are needed and expected towards establishing the truth in a comprehensive, transparent and credible manner.

Turkey


President Erdogan ^ said today that he would make a full statement on the case when he addresses his ruling party MPs in parliament on Tuesday (Oct 23).

The Turkish leader has so far refrained from making strong statements about the death of Khashoggi, often referring to a prosecutors' investigation into the killing.

Analysts see this as an attempt to avoid provoking a full rupture of relations with Saudi Arabia.

'We are looking for justice here and this will be revealed in all its naked truth, not through some ordinary steps but in all its naked truth,' Erdogan told a rally in Istanbul on Sunday.

Erdogan said Saudi Arabia still hasn't explained why 15 Saudi government officers flew to the consulate in Istanbul and where is Jamal Khashoggi's body?

U.S.



Meanwhile, President Trump has gone from saying the Saudi's official account was 'credible' on Friday to saying he is 'not satisfied' with the Saudis' account in a phone interview with the Washington Post last night.

'Obviously there's been deception, and there's been lies,' Trump said.

Trump's comments came after 22 senators sent a letter to Trump demanding an independent probe into Khashoggi's disappearance and alleged murder.

Under the 2016 Global Magnitsky Act the White House has 120 days to carry out a probe and impose sanctions on anyone responsible.

Trump continued to talk about the importance of high dollar arms deals with Saudi Arabia however.

Trump also attempted to distance Jared Kushner from MBS. He said, 'they're two young guys; Jared doesn't know him well or anything.'

Refs:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...e4e465f4b9
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...death.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...plete.html

Kushner is 37 years old. How long is this "young guy = can't be blamed" bullshit going to last, into his 50s?