(10-21-2018, 02:33 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote:

(10-19-2018, 11:25 AM)Rootilda Wrote: Nuke the entire site from orbit--it's the only way to be sure

I got this one, even if nobody else did.

One of my all time favorites, with plenty of memorable one-liners.

Yeah there was a guy at LONAF that said that line all the time.

(10-20-2018, 11:00 AM)Duchess Wrote: Why do some of you think the worst of people who are seeking a better life?

Because they are uninvited. How would you feel if you had a party for friends you invited to your home and uninvited strangers showed up and expected you to welcome them and feed them and give them a place to sleep. Then turn to you and say they are don't appreciate how you live and refuse to communicate with you in your own language. I don't agree with much of what Trump does but we need legal immigration and the American people deserve to receive services from our govt first. These are services we have paid for and should be the first to receive. Then if there is something left, give it to strangers. Best to give it to strangers who stay in their own country.

It's particularly challenging when large groups of migrant amnesty seekers attempt to enter the country at the same time.  

That puts a strain on border patrol, processing, housing, and immigration courts when the size of the group is beyond the expectation.    

Then again, the caravans led by migrant activists are much safer for those making the long hard trek than traveling alone or in small groups, though the optics of such a large group sure does work to fan the flames for anti-immigrant politicians and pundits.

The approaching caravan, just before the midterms, is a big benefit to Trump and the Republicans politically, in my opinion.  And, they're doing a good job of exploiting it.

Anyway, a large majority of migrants who make it to the border will be denied amnesty and deported, same as always.  

The criteria and burden of endangerment proof was always strict and it's stricter now with revisions made by the Trump administration, so an even larger majority of migrants who make it to the U.S. border should expect to be turned back.

Now that the President has stopped claiming and demanding that Mexico is going to pay for "The Wall", hopefully Mexico will continue to work with the U.S. to most compassionately and efficiently deal with the migrant caravans and help set realistic expectations.

As a democracy with human rights laws and policies, there is budget allocated to cover the costs of immigration and amnesty functions, same as with other democratic countries.  

And, the number of migrants looking to enter the U.S. is historically low, though you wouldn't know it if you only listen to the President and conservative media.




I don't feel fear or resentment when I see thousands of people at our borders seeking safety and better lives.  I feel for them.  

But, I understand that the U.S. needs to control it and not everyone is going to think they've been treated fairly.

Anyhow, even though migration numbers are comparatively low..........what's more difficult than it was up until a decade ago is the fact that more Central American migrants are minors who cross the border alone and parents entering with minor children.

Children can't just be turned away alone and shouldn't be separated from their parents or forced to represent themselves in immigration court, in my opinion.

We as a country need to plan better for the changing face of migration and should seriously consider the fact that when we're at full employment, like we are now, there aren't enough Americans to fill lower wage and manual labor jobs.

It's particularly difficult in agriculture, where the farmers are simultaneously being hurt financially by tariff trade wars.

I know I'm repeating myself, but comprehensive immigration reform is so long overdue because Congress has gotten nowhere for nearly 10 years now. So, we keep going in circles trying to apply old/insufficient processes instead of coming up with solutions.

Unfortunately, even when there are Republicans and Democrats who reach across the aisle and propose reasonable bi-partisan legislation (as has been the case several times), the anti-immigration hard-liners in the Republican Freedom Caucus won't support it.

That Caucus is large and powerful enough (for now) to stop new legislation in its tracks.

Sad situation all the way around, to me.

(10-19-2018, 11:54 AM)Duchess Wrote:

(10-19-2018, 11:08 AM)Maggot Wrote: This seems to be happening more often so, how can it be stopped?

Do you understand that the people you are referring to are trying to get to America in order to save themselves and their loved ones? Do you really believe that they would risk their life and their children's lives to come here so they can take advantage of America? They risk everything to come here because they have hope and they want a chance to live in a safe place. What do you think they are going to take from you or your family? If I had a way to help them, I would. I'd give them a safe place to live and a job so they could feel productive and support their families.

How many of the people are running in fear and trying to "save themselves" and how many are thinking "I can earn x times more in US than I can here and Hell even if I don't get a job, they will look after me."? How many of the "economic migrants will be pretending they are refugees running from danger? How many are criminals? Ms-13 and human/drug/child traffickers? How many going over with children are actually related to the children they are with?

Do you know the answers to ANY of these questions?

Do you have the slightest understanding of how prevalent any of these things are?

Are you interested in finding out?

(10-19-2018, 02:09 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Trump says the Democrats wanted this caravan and suggested they even paid Honduran migrants to make the long dangerous trek just before midterms.

I think that's total bullshit rhetoric and he knows it, but it riles up his base. No Democratic strategist or candidate wants a major controversial event with an unpredictable response/outcome just before an election. I'd be highly surprised if the Democrats see the caravan coming now as an advantage.

Anyway, as for what should be done with the migrants...............they should be interviewed and go through the established process, same as always. It's good that Mexico is advising and informing them of the challenges they face before they reach the U.S. this time.

I wish the U.S. would commit to working and negotiating more with the governments of Honduras, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and El Salvador to improve conditions and economic opportunities for the people there. That's the best strategy to address future mass migration from nearby countries, in my view.

"I think that's total bullshit rhetoric and he knows it, but it riles up his base."

You realise that this makes fuck all sense, don't you Snowflake?
You THINK Trump thinks X BECAUSE YOU think X then Trump Knows X and does it because Y
Your brain does not work. Too much Progressive wrongthink.

Why do you imagine America should take economic responsibility for those South American countries? Don't THEY have responsibility to look after their own people? Wouldn't it be insulting to suggest that America has to do so? Isn't it entirely the onus of a country to look after its country's people and finances? Should America outsource their responsibilities to their people to other countries? What about some foreign country take responsibility for their resources, finances, housing, food, military, people? No?

(10-20-2018, 11:37 AM)Duchess Wrote:

(10-20-2018, 11:29 AM)Maggot Wrote: I have no problem with them coming here, get a passport and C'mon down, get a visa and enter and sign in. Whats wrong with that? What is wrong with going the legal route? I really want to know.

How does one go about doing that when running for their life? Serious question.

Which ones EXACTLY are "running for their lives"? Any? All? Some? How many?

I really have no issue with a struggling family who is running from violence and crime and is not wanting to be part of that world and is wanting to integrate and become the most productive member of their host country to claim refugee status. But I would not make broad claims that these people in the caravan were doing that. I have no idea how many are doing so. I have not a list of intentions or reasons or affiliation. Some will be good and some will be bad. Some will be bludgers and some will be model citizens but to pretend that they all are generally the same victims is frankly complete bullshit. Nice talking point but bullshit.

https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/statu...7773488129

(10-20-2018, 11:00 AM)Duchess Wrote: Why do some of you think the worst of people who are seeking a better life?

In my observation:

-Fear-mongering by U.S. politicians who benefit politically from it, via: 

--misinformation regarding the long term cost/benefit ratio (not exclusively monetary) when it comes to immigration,
--perpetuating the lie that "millions of illegal aliens vote illegally",
--lack of understanding or concern regarding the high levels of violence/ extortion the citizens of some Central American countries face from criminal organizations and complicit/corrupt government leaders (and the U.S.'s role in enabling it, particularly in Guatemala), 
--re-enforcing the false narrative that migrants are largely 'criminals' when facts prove that the percentage of migrants who are criminals is very low,

-Prejudice, fear of 'less-deserving others'.....

I don't support open borders, that's not a solution in my opinion.

And, the U.S. already gives Central American countries large amounts of economic aid, though it has been cut under the Trump administration. Simply throwing more money at the governments of Central America is not the solution (and I didn't suggest that it was).

Forced regime change is not the answer either -- we've done that in the past and it's only contributed to the instability in Central America.

What I think the U.S. needs is stronger and well-developed immigration policies and processes. That needs to come via legislation from our government, which has failed to address the issue proactively for a decade. Sometimes I wonder if some of our elected officials believe it benefits them more politically not to address the hot button issue.

What I'd really like to see is more diplomatic coordination, assistance and negotiation between U.S. leaders and the leaders of the Central American governments to address the systemic violence and corruption that's driving Central Americans to flee. That would need to include options and goals for economic development.

I've read some opinion pieces suggesting that facilitating the legalization of drugs would go a long way towards reducing government-supported criminal enterprises in Central America. Most of the collusion between Central American governments and criminal enterprises which abuse their populations is drug-related, and Americans drive the demand for the illegal drugs. I'm not sure if the drug legalization theory would bear out in reality, but think it's worth further exploration.

The U.S. could also work with Central America and the U.N. in regards to international human rights laws and treaties, tying mutually beneficial rewards to adherence. We used to be regarded as the world's leader in that arena. I don't believe that's the case anymore, but we could be again.

(10-22-2018, 09:10 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I don't support open borders

I don't know anyone that does. I've never even heard anyone lobby for that but according to the prez, Democrats want open borders and once the immigrants are here the Dems are going to give them a luxury car.

The Hurricanes/Storms  in Texas, Carolinas, Florida, (and Porto Rico)  in the past few months here in the Good ole US of A
has displaced Thousands of "American Citizens", that need to be cared for and helped with housing and living necessities first, before even "thinking of considering" helping the caravan people!!! Take care of our own first!  The End!

Start setting up the tents now and baking the biscuits and gravy. They will be stuck for quite a while in the waiting room. They can sit together and play cards. Keep the kids with the adults and let them sit for a few months. Welcome to America. Maybe put them to work building a wall for food and housing. Plenty of work to go around. 

(10-22-2018, 01:18 PM)Carsman Wrote: The Hurricanes/Storms  in Texas, Carolinas, Florida, (and Porto Rico)  in the past few months here in the Good ole US of A
has displaced Thousands of "American Citizens", that need to be cared for and helped with housing and living necessities first, before even "thinking of considering" helping the caravan people!!! Take care of our own first!  The End!

The Fed and State governments definitely need to do everything they can as quickly as possible for the Americans affected by natural disasters. I agree. 

They also have an obligation to handle migrants compassionately and according to law.

There are different governmental agencies and budgets for each.  So, it’s not a ‘pick one over the other’ proposition.

(10-22-2018, 09:10 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: That needs to come via legislation from our government, which has failed to address the issue proactively for a decade. 

Republicans control Congress, what is stopping them from doing what they want?

There was a bipartisan bill that trump specifically said to bring to him and he'd sign it, just get it on his desk, and when they did, he refused it. I think he just wants something to bitch about, it's always a part of his klan rally, he's not givin' that shit up, what the hell would he use to get those tools jacked up.

(10-22-2018, 03:14 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(10-22-2018, 09:10 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: That needs to come via legislation from our government, which has failed to address the issue proactively for a decade. 

Republicans control Congress, what is stopping them from doing what they want?

The Republican Freedom Caucus isn't open to many of the immigration policies put forth in bi-partisan proposals, so McConnell won't put immigration reform to vote on the floor.

I do believe there are quite a few Republicans who want to make the necessary changes, but they're stymied by the extremists in their party.

(10-22-2018, 04:52 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(10-22-2018, 03:14 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(10-22-2018, 09:10 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: That needs to come via legislation from our government, which has failed to address the issue proactively for a decade. 

Republicans control Congress, what is stopping them from doing what they want?

The Republican Freedom Caucus isn't open to many of the immigration policies put forth in bi-partisan proposals, so McConnell won't put immigration reform to vote on the floor.

I do believe there are quite a few Republicans who want to make the necessary changes, but they're stymied by the extremists in their party.

Maybe if the Democrat party would move on the criteria for refugee status and less were using that as an un-verifiable reason for immigrating there might be some "bi-partisan" movement. Even in the cities of Guatemala commercials run that glorify this position in the States. Why do you think they come in with Guatemalan flags rather than American flags flying. They are asserting their right as citizens of a foreign country to go to another country and be welcomed as "New citizens" Once they hit American soil they are here. 

The "caravan" will be 10,000 soon and I wonder what would happen if 10,000 Russian troops were heading towards the Bering Straights. They kinda look pretty pissed at America as they walk........I see cameras up ahead, strip the baby!  

There's no way around it Mags. Trump is lying again when he says the Democrats are obstructing immigration reform. Many of us watched what happened real-time and there's plenty of video and written documentation available.

The Dems worked with Republicans to draft an immigration reform proposal and met with Trump live on tv. Trump said he would sign any bi-partisan immigration bill they supported.

Then, Trump turned around and reneged, saying he wouldn't sign unless he got $20 billion for The Wall. So, the bi-partisan group added the funding to their proposal.

And still................Speaker Ryan couldn't get enough Republican votes in the House to pass anything. The Freedom Caucus wouldn't get behind the bi-partisan proposal, which had broad support and might have passed the Senate, because they didn't find the proposal conservative/strict enough for their tastes.

And, the rest of the Republican House would not support the Freedom Caucus's immigration bill because it was too conservative/strict and would hurt their re-election bids.

McConnell isn't gonna draft immigration legislation out of the Senate and take a vote when he knows it couldn't pass the House anyway so long as it's clear the Freedom Caucus won't align with the rest of the Republican party.

So, nothing changes in terms of immigration legislation/policy............. and Republicans continue to vilify and bitch about immigrants and deflect the blame onto Democrats (which actually seems to work in driving enthusiasm with Trump's core base).

On the issue of immigration reform, it is not the Democrats stalling progress. The Dems have reached across the aisle. And, they have capitulated to Trump. It is instead the divide within the Republican party when it comes to immigration philosophy and policy that's holding up reform at present. That's a fact.

(10-22-2018, 11:33 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: On the issue of immigration reform, it is not the Democrats stalling progress.  The Dems have reached across the aisle.  And, they have capitulated to Trump.   It is instead the divide within the Republican party when it comes to immigration philosophy and policy that's holding up reform at present.  That's a fact.

You're trying to show the truth to a republican. Ain't going to work. Most plug their ears, say lalalalala and continue to parrot the lying president, he's the only thing that supports their narrative. Truth never appears to matter to them, if it did, they would be satisfied with facts, they never are.

Trump offered amnesty for 1.8 million dreamers if the Dems would fund the wall. thats quite a few people and he went against his base and offered it anyways. The left scowled, booed and completely negated that offer which I thought was a good deal. The Dems wanted amnesty but no wall and today there are 8000 heading this way.