Maggot Wrote:Most companies pay at least 50% of the cost for health care, what will happen when they decide not to and the government gets saddled with paying for it. I know quite a few small businesses that will just drop the coverage. This will be a mess. Another payroll deduction likeS.S. and medicaid. And what kind of doctor will accept "welfare" coverage? With all the hassles that come with it. Try and find a dentist that uses "healthy kids" coverage, not many do. This plan needs to be revised and tweaked.

What needs to be done is insurance reform.

We also already have a gov't run health care system - it's called Medicaid.

Why can't they clean the shit and corruption out of that, make it so anyone who wants to buy into the govt' plan can do so on a sliding scale (according to income) basis? This will put money INTO the system which in turn has more money to give to the doctors and hospitals which will in turn make it a bit more appealing for doctors to accept the Medicaid.

Everyone bitched and whined about the loss of privacy with the Patriot Act but did any of them consider the amount of privacy you're going to lose when you're part of the 'system' of health care?

ramseycat Wrote:

SyberBitch Wrote:

The Antagonist Wrote:That health care bill passes the senate, we lose the first chunk of our freedom. It'll be the first time in our history we are forced by the government to purchase something - and from the gov't no less!

In most states, people are 'forced' to pay for vehicle insurance if they want to drive. That's a far bigger waste of consumer money than health insurance would be, and it's not even adjusted to your income. Worst of all, if you CAN'T pay your insurance and it gets dropped, what do they do? Raise the price!!

Hell, let's get rid of mandatory auto insurance and put that money toward our healthcare instead.

You won't be saying that when some jerkoff hits your car and has no car insurance and it'a all your bill.

Yes I will... because half the people running around don't have insurance anyway because they can't frigging afford it. What I pay for LIABILITY is ridiculous, all because I had some bad years and my insurance 'lapsed' a few times. Fuck insurance companies. They are the devil.

The Antagonist Wrote:What needs to be done is insurance reform.

We also already have a gov't run health care system - it's called Medicaid.

Why can't they clean the shit and corruption out of that, make it so anyone who wants to buy into the govt' plan can do so on a sliding scale (according to income) basis? This will put money INTO the system which in turn has more money to give to the doctors and hospitals which will in turn make it a bit more appealing for doctors to accept the Medicaid.

That's a smart idea... I'd go for it.

I guess the thing is, that right now, when a person without medical insurance has an emergency, they head into ER and have to get taken care of anyway. They get sent a huge bill, which they never pay. They hospital eats the cost, everyone else's medical costs go up.

A solution like that would probably work though. I don't know why it has to be so damned complicated.

It's complicated because money to politicians is involved.

Sticky fingers are abundant.

If you read any or all of that massive clusterfuck of a bill you'd know how damaging it is to our privacy, freedom and health care.

I don't have health care, I don't leech off the system and I am disabled. So I don't give a rat's ass about "what about the poor people who can't afford insurance"? I honestly don't because I'm one of them.

I grew up learning how to make due with what I have. I grew up dirt poor, I had it all when I was married and I lost it all as well as gained some of "it" back.

You learn to cope, survive and do for yourself. I was brought up to understand your life is what you make it and you should not depend on anyone for anything thinking you're gettng a free ride because nothing comes without a price. Just because you are not as wealthy as someone else does not entitle you to what isn't earned by you. Never expect a handout.

My father taught us that nothing is more sacred than our freedom and every man and woman I know in my life that served in our military says and believes the same thing.

I just wish the current Congress understood this and started listening to what the people want and stop telling us that they know better. They don't.

(11-09-2009, 02:21 PM)The Antagonist Wrote: If you read any or all of that massive clusterfuck of a bill you'd know how damaging it is to our privacy, freedom and health care.

I haven't read it yet, but I probably should... not that it makes a hell of a lot of difference what I think about it.

The Antagonist Wrote:I don't have health care, I don't leech off the system and I am disabled. So I don't give a rat's ass about "what about the poor people who can't afford insurance"? I honestly don't because I'm one of them.

I am 'self employed'. I do not have health insurance and very rarely seek medical attention. As you say, I 'make do'. The only concession I make is that I do have state health care for my son.... which again I very rarely use. He's nearly 3 years old and has only been to the doctor twice in the last year.

Then, there are the people like my ignorant relatives, who live on 'welfare' and are dragging their disgusting kids into ER every time they get a sniffle. Irresponsible assholes. It's not like they are just way more concerned about their kids either... they are horrible parents, neglectful and abusive.

It would be nice if we actually did have a voice in what was going on with our government, as a so-called-Democracy, we should... but we don't really unless we go to great lengths to make ourselves heard. It's very frustrating to even talk about.

Syber, if your family is on welfare why are they not using Medicaid instead of the ER?

Welfare recipients automatically get food stamps and medicaid. The amount of doctors who accept the program is a whole different matter but they should be on the program for the kids in your state. Each state is different on how it handles Medicaid but the only reason I can think of that they use the ER is out of laziness.

I have to go finish cementing my broken steps. Small projects almost always turn into medium ones, it seems.

(11-09-2009, 01:13 PM)SyberBitch Wrote:

ramseycat Wrote:

SyberBitch Wrote:

The Antagonist Wrote:That health care bill passes the senate, we lose the first chunk of our freedom. It'll be the first time in our history we are forced by the government to purchase something - and from the gov't no less!

In most states, people are 'forced' to pay for vehicle insurance if they want to drive. That's a far bigger waste of consumer money than health insurance would be, and it's not even adjusted to your income. Worst of all, if you CAN'T pay your insurance and it gets dropped, what do they do? Raise the price!!

Hell, let's get rid of mandatory auto insurance and put that money toward our healthcare instead.

You won't be saying that when some jerkoff hits your car and has no car insurance and it'a all your bill.

Yes I will... because half the people running around don't have insurance anyway because they can't frigging afford it. What I pay for LIABILITY is ridiculous, all because I had some bad years and my insurance 'lapsed' a few times. Fuck insurance companies. They are the devil.

You had some bad years and let it lapse? As in your drove around without insurance? In the insurance world you are a bad risk. Your liability premium is high because you are considered a LIABILITY. Your insurance company doesn't want to be on the hook for an accident during one of those times you "lapse" in your payment. Yes people do drive without insurance. But they are in the minority. NYS passed the No Fault Laws so their citizens would have medical coverage if injured in an accident no matter what. And it was a good thing until the scammers decided that they were goint to milk the system. They bulk up their No Fault claim so they can have a bigger Bodily Injury claim against the other carrier. There are so many people out there that screw the system and then blame their high premiums on the big bad insurance company. I see it everyday. Sorry, I got off on a rampage there! LOL

(11-10-2009, 12:42 PM)The Antagonist Wrote: Syber, if your family is on welfare why are they not using Medicaid instead of the ER?

Welfare recipients automatically get food stamps and medicaid. The amount of doctors who accept the program is a whole different matter but they should be on the program for the kids in your state. Each state is different on how it handles Medicaid but the only reason I can think of that they use the ER is out of laziness.

They DO have Medicaid, but they take their kids to the ER every time they get a cold, thus wasting thousands of tax-payer dollars. Fuckers.

(11-10-2009, 02:29 PM)ramseycat Wrote: You had some bad years and let it lapse? As in your drove around without insurance? In the insurance world you are a bad risk. Your liability premium is high because you are considered a LIABILITY. Your insurance company doesn't want to be on the hook for an accident during one of those times you "lapse" in your payment.

Bullshit, Ramsey!

If I were in a period where my insurance were 'lapsed' I *wouldn't be covered* - so what's their fucking risk? I've been driving for 23 years and never had an accident. Not one. It's just a bullshit excuse to make more money.

If you are caught driving without insurance in my state, this is what will happen to you ~

When a law enforcement officer stops you for any reason, you will be required to show valid proof of insurance on the vehicle. If you are driving a vehicle while not having the proper insurance, upon conviction, you will be fined not less than $1500 for the first offense and $3000 for each subsequent offense occurring within 3 years of a former offense. Driving license and/or privileges will also be suspended for 6 months.

(11-10-2009, 06:21 PM)SyberBitch Wrote:

(11-10-2009, 02:29 PM)ramseycat Wrote: You had some bad years and let it lapse? As in your drove around without insurance? In the insurance world you are a bad risk. Your liability premium is high because you are considered a LIABILITY. Your insurance company doesn't want to be on the hook for an accident during one of those times you "lapse" in your payment.

Bullshit, Ramsey!

If I were in a period where my insurance were 'lapsed' I *wouldn't be covered* - so what's their fucking risk? I've been driving for 23 years and never had an accident. Not one. It's just a bullshit excuse to make more money.

You're right, you probably wouldn't be covered. Unless, it was during the grace period where you are late on your premium but have not actualy been cancelled yet. And while you were driving around with your insurance lapsed and you slide on the ice and t-bone another car in an intersection, THEIR insurance has to pay for their vehicle AND the injuries they sustain. I have a case like that now. So while your company doesn't have to pay because you lapsed, the other guys does. And sliding on the ice is still your fault because you are going to fast for the conditions. That is traffic law, not my personal opinion. The insurance companies also use your credit rating in determining your premium. And maybe I am wrong in our case, but usually when your insurance lapses, it's not because you cancelled the policy. It's because you didn't pay your bill. Again, frowned upon by the underwriters.

bzt...........

(11-10-2009, 09:46 PM)ramseycat Wrote: You're right, you probably wouldn't be covered. Unless, it was during the grace period where you are late on your premium but have not actualy been cancelled yet.

The likelihood of which is pretty damned slim.

ramseycat Wrote:And while you were driving around with your insurance lapsed and you slide on the ice and t-bone another car in an intersection, THEIR insurance has to pay for their vehicle AND the injuries they sustain.

Unless, like most people, they only have liability on their vehicle. And even then, why does it mean that I would be a greater risk to MY company? Insurance companies are hardly the champion of injured people. Hell, even if you HAVE insurance, you have to fight like hell to actually get the coverage you paid for. And then, even in cases where the accident wasn't your fault, guess what?? YOUR premium goes up!! You're screwed coming and going.

Ramsey Wrote:And maybe I am wrong in our case, but usually when your insurance lapses, it's not because you cancelled the policy. It's because you didn't pay your bill. Again, frowned upon by the underwriters.

No, you're right. The policy was canceled because I didn't pay the bill, but so frigging what? Seriously.. it's not like you're getting anything you don't pay for. You pay for insurance coverage IN ADVANCE. So fuck 'em. If I could figure out a way to screw them out of the money now, I absolutely would, in protest. It's not the job of insurance companies to be the 'moral police' to make sure everyone walks the straight and narrow. It's their job to cover your ass if you need them and you're paying them for it.

Again - insurance companies are the devil.

Walmart, Target and Amazon are having a price war on DVDs...

http://www.cinematical.com/2009/11/09/wa...vd-prices/

You don't pay your bill but you get pissed that you don't have coverage. Nice. Insurance companies are in business to make money as are most business. And think about it, you might pay $900 a year for insurance. If you total your car, the average payout is over $20k if you have a fairly new vehicle. That is a lot of years paying $900. Besides, insurance companies actually make money on investing, not premiums. Do you know what liability coverage is? It's coverage to pay for the other guys damage and injuries when the mva is your fault. Chances are that amount is going to be a lot higher than your premium. Also, your premiums should not go up if the mva is not your fault. That is how it is in NY anyway. Not sure about MI. You should be pissed at the losers that fake their soft tissue injuries and bilk the insurance companies out of millions of dollars every year. Those are the fuckers that make insurance more expensive for everyone. I see it everyday. It's bad in NYC. There are fraud rings all over the city. The people stage the accident and claim they are injured. The medical providers and attorneys are all in on it too. They sue for big pain and suffering settlements while getting fake medical bills and wages paid through No Fault coverage. Be mad at those fuckers. Not the insurance comanies.

(11-11-2009, 12:05 AM)ramseycat Wrote: You don't pay your bill but you get pissed that you don't have coverage. Nice.

I don't know where you read that, because I didn't say it. I never said I was pissed for not having coverage if I didn't pay the bill, I only said that insurance companies only PROVIDE coverage IF you pay your bill (in advance) because you were trying to make some kind of case that people who don't pay their bills are a 'risk' to the company. The only 'risk', really, is that they won't get your money.

Ramseycat Wrote:Insurance companies are in business to make money as are most business.

Well, NSS. However, with the majority of insurance company clients, you pay thousands of dollars into your policy, and never get a cent back. All of that money, which by the way, you HAVE to pay (or not drive legally), you lose and never get back... for NOTHING.

Ramseycat Wrote:And think about it, you might pay $900 a year for insurance. If you total your car, the average payout is over $20k if you have a fairly new vehicle. That is a lot of years paying $900. Besides, insurance companies actually make money on investing, not premiums.

Ahem. Well, I know MY premium, for just 'liability' is considerably more than that, so I thought I would do a little research on the subject and here is what I found:

"The national average cost of an auto insurance premium in May 2009 is $1,837 according to CPI. CPI indicated the estimated the average cost for auto insurance nationwide for 2007 was $1,600 and rates have continued to increase in 2009."

So, on 'average', let's double your $900/year (I'm assuming this is an annual figure) and take an annual 'average' of $1800/person. $1800/year over the course of TWELVE YEARS, barely more than a decade, is $21600. Which means that the 'average' person PAYS for a new vehicle, just in insurance payments, at least 4-5 times in their lifetime. Now, let's consider how many people actually do 'total' their car. I did a little more research and found this: (from 'Progressive.com')

"What's the likelihood that you'll have a total loss?

Total losses do not occur frequently. During a year only 8 percent of our customers have any claim at all and about 17 percent of vehicles that have a claim are declared a total loss. The likelihood that you will have a total loss is minimal."

So hmmm 17% of 8%, is 1.36%... let's say 1.5% to be fair. That means that just 1.5% of the customers, 'on average' are going to claim a 'total loss' on their vehicle which most of them pay for several times over in their lifetime of driving. Sound 'fair'?? Hell no. And as I said, even then, you have to fight like hell and be put through the gamut by twaddle-brained, power-mad insurance adjusters, who make every effort to NOT PAY your claim. Insurance agencies in the US are probably one of the biggest legalized scams in the country. It's ridiculous.

ramseycat Wrote:Do you know what liability coverage is? It's coverage to pay for the other guys damage and injuries when the mva is your fault.

Again, NSS. Do you seriously run into people who DON'T know what 'liability insurance' is?

Ramseycat Wrote:Chances are that amount is going to be a lot higher than your premium.

That information was a little harder to find, but I did find numbers for the UK, which stated approx 100k cases of bodily injury payouts for auto accidents, with an average payout of about $12k (translated to US currency). Now, I don't know how that compares to US numbers, but yes, I think we can safely say that the 'average' bodily injury payout is going to be higher than a person's average ANNUAL premium... but over the course of a lifetime?? I would have to guess that very very few people, of the small percentage who actually have bodily injury payouts against them, do not pay enough to cover the damages several times over during their driving history.

ramseycat Wrote:Also, your premiums should not go up if the mva is not your fault. That is how it is in NY anyway. Not sure about MI.

I'm not sure what MI has to do with anything, but maybe yes, maybe no. In researching THAT little tidbit, it appears that it's really just up to the insurance company (surprise!). I do know, that I've known several people who have had their insurance premiums increase after being in an accident that was NOT their fault. In fact, it happens more often than not.

ramseycat Wrote:You should be pissed at the losers that fake their soft tissue injuries and bilk the insurance companies out of millions of dollars every year. Those are the fuckers that make insurance more expensive for everyone. I see it everyday. It's bad in NYC. There are fraud rings all over the city. The people stage the accident and claim they are injured. The medical providers and attorneys are all in on it too. They sue for big pain and suffering settlements while getting fake medical bills and wages paid through No Fault coverage. Be mad at those fuckers. Not the insurance comanies.

Honestly, I don't see why insurance adjusters feel the need to take the claims 'personally', as if the money were coming out of their own pockets. :

Yes, there is insurance fraud. Does that excuse ridiculous overcharging of MANDATORY auto insurance rates? NO. Does it excuse raising a person's liability rate for having their premium lapse because they couldn't afford the bill in the first place?? HELL no.

The only people it really makes sense to, are the 'fat cat' executives at the top who would rather let people die than give them the coverage that they pay for when they really need it that GOD FORBID decrease their, no doubt, plush salaries. Well, them and the insurance adjusters they brainwash daily with their company lines and bullshit.

One of my nephews pays four thousand dollars a year for LIABILITY !...Never been in trouble, never had an accident, done nothing to have to pay such an exorbitant fee yet, if he wants to drive & of course he does, that's what he pays...I'm outraged for him.

It's the same here, Duchess. Teenagers have the highest premiums and if you had so much as a ticket you're screwed as an adult.

Insurance is a racket - they are in the business of gambling and they continually stack the odds in their favor.

I got dumped by my homeowners insurance two years ago because I live near the beach! They figured we are in for a Cat 4 or better hurricane that year and I either had to have this house be newer than 2 years old or make the equivalent of a steel cage around the house and anchor that to the core of the earth to continue coverage.

I noticed we haven't even had a Nor'Easter in two years hit us here.

If we reformed insurance and made the rules uniform for everyone across the nation things would be much better. Rates go up when there are disasters too. Giant multi car wrecks on highways will drive up rates for everyone as well as natural disasters for homeowners.

We who've never had a claim pay gigantic premiums because of what has been paid out or what has been neglected due to no insurance or people skipping out on the bill.

It's a racket.

(11-11-2009, 12:05 AM)ramseycat Wrote: The medical providers and attorneys are all in on it too. They sue for big pain and suffering settlements while getting fake medical bills and wages paid through No Fault coverage.

Some asshole is suing my commercial insurance right now. One of our drivers backed into him causing no damage to either vehicle and the guy did not appear to be hurt in anyway, he was perfectly fine and drove away. Next thing I know, the guy is in severe pain and had to have surgery. I just got a letter from Allstate saying they are increasing their offer to $30,000.00