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+--- Thread: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers (/thread-6160.html)
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - Duchess - 12-04-2013
I can't watch it. I don't want to hear him calling for his Dad, reading it is bad enough :(
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - sally - 12-04-2013
All that just because he had someone else's mail in his back pack? I don't like cops, I know they're necessary and a lot of them are just doing their job, but for the most part I can't fucking stand them.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - HairOfTheDog - 12-06-2013
Coroner's Testimony
Defense attorneys in the Kelly Thomas trial repeatedly challenged the testimony of a pathologist who concluded that the homeless man died from injuries he suffered during his violent clash with Fullerton police.
Aruna Singhania, an Orange County coroner’s office pathologist, testified that Thomas died of brain damage from lack of oxygen caused by chest compression and injuries to his face.
Singhania said that after examining Thomas' body she couldn't determine the cause of death but reached a conclusion about three months later after conducting a toxicology report, a microscopic review and watching the video of the 2011 beating.
Her testimony is considered critical in the trial of former officers Manuel Ramos and Jay Cicinelli. Ramos is charged with second-degree murder and Cicinelli with involuntary manslaughter.
John Barnett, Ramos' attorney, pressed the pathologist, saying her testimony was inconsistent with the preliminary hearing when she pointed to a single moment in the beating as the cause of death.
Singhania said she had been misled in the preliminary hearing questioning and that there was not a single instance of compression during that struggle that caused Thomas' death. He lost his ability to breathe as the beating progressed, she said.
“It’s a constellation of injuries, not one single injury,” Singhania responded.
At one point Barnett asked her if the compression occurred when Thomas was screaming for his father to help him and Ramos was holding his feet.
“I’m going to correct myself,” Singhania said, referring again to her preliminary testimony. “Compression occurred but the intensity is not there, there’s no one-time compression … you never asked about the intensity.”
During opening statements in the trial Monday, defense attorneys said Thomas died because he had a bad heart due to prior drug use, not from injuries suffered in the struggle.
At times Barnett's cross examination became heated.
“But you determined a discrete event on the video which showed compression, which you cited as the cause of death right?” Barnett asked Singhania.
“Again, this has gotten misinterpreted,” Singhania said.
“You know this is a problem for the case don’t you?” Barnett responded.
The cross examination from Barnett and Michael Schwartz, who is representing Cicinelli, lasted nearly three hours.
At the end, when Judge William Froeberg asked if Singhania should be excused or placed on call to return as a witness, Orange County Dist. Atty. Tony Rackauckas said she should be excused.
When Froeberg excused her, Schwartz smiled at Barnett and winked. (Assholes)
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-kelly-thomas-cause-of-death-20131205,0,5356656.story#ixzz2mjqJuZrN
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - HairOfTheDog - 12-12-2013
Prosecution Rests
After only 5 days of testimony, the prosecution has rested its case.
![[Image: 73203-eight.jpg]](http://a.scpr.org/i/4495afb90436cd510f2991138a9a7289/73203-eight.jpg)
Orange County District Atty. Tony Rackauckas
Rackaukas stuck to the facts and focused much of the case against Ramos and Cicinelli around the video and audio-taped beating, along with medical testimony from the ME, the paramedic at the scene, a doctor at the hospital, and a police force training expert.
Defense begins its case
The Defense began its case. As expected, they called witnesses, some of whom are Thomas family members, to testify about their experiences with Kelly when he was violent.
The defense attorneys are moving quickly, too. Six witnesses in one day.
The defense is likely to call its own medical experts to refute the prosecution's. The defense is arguing that Kelly died as a result of heart malfunction resulting from drug use.
If this pace continues, jury deliberations could begin mid next week.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - HairOfTheDog - 12-29-2013
UPDATE
Defense Case in a Nutshell - Self Defense
Before the trial broke for the holidays, attorneys for Ramos and Cicinelli argued they acted in self-defense when they dealt with a violent and out-of-control Thomas.
Ramos and Cicinelli said in police reports that they were surprised by Thomas’ strength and feared he would get the upper hand in the fight.
Neither of the former officers took the stand.
Prosecution Motion for Introduction of New Evidence
A motion was filed by the prosecution on December 18th; they want access to the Fullerton PD's Internal Affairs personnel files for former officers Ramos and Cicinelli, particularly those related to the Kelly Thomas beating investigation.
Prosecutors contend that the contents therein may contradict the defense's "use of force" expert's testimony that neither officer violated policy during the beating of Kelly Thomas.
Fullerton police Cpl. Stephen Rubio, who was formerly a use-of-force trainer with the department, testified that the actions of the two officers were within the department’s policies.
The judge ruled Friday that portions of the personnel records of the two former Fullerton officers charged in the death of the homeless man be turned over to prosecutors and defense lawyers.
However, the judge gave Fullerton’s city attorney a week to challenge the decision before the Fourth District Court of Appeals, said Susan Schroeder, the Orange County district attorney's office chief of staff.
Trial Schedule
The trial will resume next week, following a 2 week holiday break.
Ref: http://www.latimes.com/la-me-ln-kelly-thomas-personnel-files 20131227,0,1587881.story#ixzz2osI6Cfpo
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You just know that the defense REALLY does not want those personnel files introduced to a jury if they contain any indications that IA investigators believed the officers had acted against policy (which I suspect they do).
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - HairOfTheDog - 01-05-2014
The trial is winding down.
Set-back for the Defense / Testimony Stricken
The judge ruled that personnel files for Ramos and Cicinelli be released to the prosecution. Prosecutors wanted the files in order to challenge two defense witnesses who testified that the officers had not violated procedure and had acted appropriately when restraining Kelly. That testimony opened the door for prosecutors to introduce the personnel files.
Instead of presenting any disciplinary actions noted in the files to dispute the defense witnesses testimony, it's expected that both sides will agree to instruct jurors to disregard the testimony of those defense witnesses altogether. Jury instructions are being drafted now.
New Prosecution Witness / Heart Expert
On Monday, the prosecution is expected to call an expert medical witness from UCLA Medical Center to refute the defense's medical expert. The defense is contending that Kelly died due to an enlarged heart brought upon by years of drug use. The prosecution contends that Kelly died as a result of chest compressions resulting from the officers' brutish tactics with Kelly when they restrained him.
Ref: www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-kelly-thomas-case-20140103,0,6007483.story#axzz2pXnMJDhs
I'm nervous about the outcome. I think the prosecution has the upper hand with the video of the beating and based on testimony thus far. But, the testimony of Kelly's family members about violent encounters with him may have scored points for the defense in their attempt to vilify Kelly and justify Ramos and Cicinelli's actions.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - Cynical Ninja - 01-06-2014
In American courts it all seems to be about villifying and besmirching the reputation of the victim.
The police in America seem to be like the Met police here a law unto themselves.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - HairOfTheDog - 01-09-2014
(01-06-2014, 09:57 AM)Cynical Ninja Wrote: In American courts it all seems to be about villifying and besmirching the reputation of the victim.
The police in America seem to be like the Met police here a law unto themselves.
It's my opinion that most police officers here in the US are committed to public safety and doing their jobs in good faith. But, there are a lot of asshole power-abusing cops out there too.
Smearing the victim is definitely a common defense tactic, whether the defendants are police officers or serial killers. It's a tactic that often succeeds if the victims have any trouble in their backgrounds and the defendants/suspects have cleaner images or savvy attorneys; sometimes because the defendants'/suspects' actions were truly justified under the circumstances and too often because the victims aren't alive to defend themselves against self-serving bullshit claims. IMO.
In this case, I'm convinced that Kelly Thomas died unnecessarily at the hands of abusive asshole cops and I really hope that they are convicted. We should know soon. Closing arguments are likely to finish up today and then jury deliberations will get underway.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - HairOfTheDog - 01-14-2014
FULLERTON COPS ACQUITTED
Jurors took less than two days to reach their verdicts.
Former Fullerton police Officer Manuel Ramos was acquitted of second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter in the 2011 death of Thomas.
Former Cpl. Jay Cicinelli was acquitted of involuntary manslaughter and excessive use of force.
Spectators let out a gasp as the verdict was read.
Cicinelli, 41, wiped tears from his eyes and Ramos, 39, put his head down and rubbed his temples before turning to his supporters and winking.
Cicinelli's attorney pounded the defense table twice before embracing his client in a bear hug.
Thomas' father sat stone-faced while his mother wept.
Orange County District Attorney Tony Rackauckus, who tried the case himself, said after the verdicts that charges will be dropped against Joseph Wolfe, a third officer awaiting trial.
Thomas' parents condemned the verdict outside court.
"Just horrified," Cathy Thomas said. "He got away with murdering my son."
Ron Thomas said the verdict gave police "carte blanche" to brutalize people.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/14/kelly-thomas-trial-officers-acquitted-in-homeless-man-death/
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Fuckers.
RIP, Kelly.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - FAHQTOO - 01-14-2014
I can't even tell you how disgusted I am with this verdict.
WTF has happened to our justice system?
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - sally - 01-14-2014
Well that sucks.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - Cynical Ninja - 01-15-2014
So cops have free licence to brutalize and kill people? Brilliant.
See the Mark Duggan thread for evidence police in the UK also have free licence to execute unarmed suspects and get away scot free.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - HairOfTheDog - 01-15-2014
(01-14-2014, 05:28 PM)FAHQTOO Wrote: I can't even tell you how disgusted I am with this verdict.
Me too.
Some of Kelly's family members who'd had violent encounters with him were reluctant witnesses for the defense; that really hurt the prosecution's case, IMO.
I didn't think the defense and its experts were convincing at all when it came to supporting their contention that Kelly's heart collapsed due to years of drug abuse. I believe that it was the force of all those cops on top of him and beating the shit outta him, as the coroner ultimately concluded and testified. Kelly told the cops dozens of times that he couldn't breathe while he was also crying out for his dad - all on tape.
Video, audio, eye witness accounts, autopsy results...and still this verdict?
We'll see how Mr. Thomas's civil suits turn out - maybe he can get some sort of justice there - though it won't be enough.
Also, on Monday night at a verdict protest, an FBI spokesperson confirmed to CBS Los Angeles that they've begun investigating the case to see if Thomas' civil rights were violated during the altercation.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - Duchess - 01-15-2014
(01-15-2014, 10:25 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Video, audio, eye witness accounts, autopsy results...and still this verdict?
I don't really have much faith in our justice system anymore. So many of the verdicts in recent years are so disheartening. I thought with all the evidence presented in this case that the chances of a guilty verdict were very good, I thought how could it not be. There is no justice for that man and I view his death as murder.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - Pat/Ohio - 01-16-2014
I'm with you Duchess, that just wasn't right to beat that guy to death. Why is it OK for a cop to beat someone like that? How many convictions have there been AGAINST a cop? I don't hate cops, not at all...but how many are out there that are "dirty" or take the law into their own hands & get away with it? IDK how these two cops were found not guilty, was this jury blind? Would you want YOUR son treated that way? How is it that suddenly doing the right thing only applies to certain people.
Recently I saw a pic of a guy being booked & the cop slammed his face into the wall...the same with a female in booking.That kind of BS has to stop. NO ONE deserves to be treated that way. This was an insult to the family. Why are the victims no longer treated as victims but put on trial instead? It sure seemed that way. Our entire court system needs a re-haul IMO & some professional jury's need to be established or this will continue.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - Cynical Ninja - 01-16-2014
Professional jury? That's just crazy enough to work. It couldn't work worse than Billy Bob, a roadkill chef from Alabama who believes gawd punishes only the wicked, being ask to understand the complexities of forensics and the US legal system.
“I thought those two law guys were innocent because the dead guys family? they said he was a bayd mayn! And gawd only punishes the wicked.”
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - Duchess - 01-16-2014
(01-16-2014, 04:10 PM)Cynical Ninja Wrote: Professional jury?
We've had that discussion in here before & I'm more open to it than I ever have been before.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - Cynical Ninja - 01-16-2014
(01-16-2014, 04:15 PM)Duchess Wrote:(01-16-2014, 04:10 PM)Cynical Ninja Wrote: Professional jury?
We've had that discussion in here before & I'm more open to it than I ever have been before.
I agree. A fews years ago I would have dismissed it out of hand not now though.
There are too many jurors looking at very compelling physical evidence of guilt and still going “duh, I fink day are innocent!”
The are thinking with their feelings not their logic and intellect and that's what defence councils are playing on! Address the juries emotions do not engage their pure logic and intellect let their feelings cloud their judgement!
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - Pat/Ohio - 01-16-2014
IDK any other way to make sure the jury isn't biased against or for someone. The whole thing is un-balanced this way. We have Jodi in jail tweeting..yet she wants her new jury questioned on their twitter usage...WTH? The prison's are filled with drug offenders & many of the more serious cases are treated like a reality show. That isn't justice. IDK how the two cops were found not guilty of anything, not excessive force...nothing.
RE: Is this Murder? Kelly Thomas Killed by Fullerton, CA Police Officers - Cynical Ninja - 01-16-2014
(01-16-2014, 04:43 PM)Pat/Ohio Wrote: IDK any other way to make sure the jury isn't biased against or for someone. The whole thing is un-balanced this way. We have Jodi in jail tweeting..yet she wants her new jury questioned on their twitter usage...WTH? The prison's are filled with drug offenders & many of the more serious cases are treated like a reality show. That isn't justice. IDK how the two cops were found not guilty of anything, not excessive force...nothing.
So Jodi Arias gets to be nitpicky about her jury? Has the world gone mental? It should be a case of....
Jody cuntface - “who's gonna be on the jury?”
“Twelve good men and true! now shut the fuck up bitch!