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+--- Thread: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? (/thread-11176.html)
Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - QueenBee - 05-26-2014
Atheists are trying to oust the “Miracle Cross” from the 9⁄11 museum, arguing that its inclusion would violate the Constitution’s separation of church and state.
But Eric Baxster of the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty told MyFoxNY that the cross is part of the story of 9⁄11 and that museums don't censor history.
“They tell history as it happened,” Baxster said.
The 17-foot cross-shaped beam was discovered in the devastation at Ground Zero and became a symbol of comfort and hope after the horrific terrorist attack.
But the group American Atheists says the cross is a part of religious history and is challenging its inclusion in the new National Sept. 11 Memorial and Museum which opens in May.
“We’re arguing for equal treatment in some way, whatever that might be.”
- Edwin Kagin, attorney for American Atheists
The group said the cross should not be in a museum that is on Port Authority property and financed by taxpayers.
In arguments before the U.S. Court of Appeals in Manhattan, American Atheists' lawyer Edwin Kagin said his organization is seeking a similar object to be displayed at the museum, something like a plaque that would say “atheists died here, too,” the Religion News Service reported.
“We’re arguing for equal treatment in some way, whatever that might be,” Kagin said after the hearing.
The museum's lawyer, Mark Alcott, told the court that rescue workers took comfort in the cross and they prayed to it as a religious object.
“But there is a difference between displaying an artifact of historical significance and saying we want you [the public] to bless it -- museum-goers understand that distinction” he said, according to London's Telegraph newspaper.
The newspaper said Judge Reena Raggi appeared skeptical of the claims by the atheist group.
“There are countless cases of museums including religious artifacts among their exhibits and it’s going to be described in a way that talks about the history of the object, what is the problem here?” she said. “An argument has been made that you are trying to censor history.”
Construction worker Frank Silecchia discovered the beam in the smoldering wreckage of the World Trade Center towers. He told the “Today” show that the cross comforted him, and it soon became a rallying point for first responders, according to Religion News Service.
“I was already working 12 hours. I was quite weary and the cross comforted me,” Silecchia said. “I never stood here before any media and said it’s about religion. But I say it’s about faith — the faith that was crushed on 9/11.”
The cross will be part of a display that includes 1,000 artifacts in a 100,000-square-foot underground museum.
The appeals court is expected to make a decision in several months.
![[Image: Cross_zpsb08ae254.jpg]](http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Marie56/media/Cross_zpsb08ae254.jpg.html)
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - Midwest Spy - 05-26-2014
I hope this turns out to be much ado about nothing.
If there is documented testimony that this cross has somehow become a part of Ground Zero, and has provided comfort to first responders and family members of victims, then I think the Aetheists can go pound sand.
Find something else to fuck with.
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - crash - 05-26-2014
I consider myself closer to atheism than to any religion, but I think these guys are just being assholes. They're using this whole thing as a vehicle to raise awareness for atheism per se.
Plenty of Christians died at that site. Plenty if the people that they left behind will be of Christian faith and that cross may give them some comfort. Whether or not I think they're gullible nutfucks being led around by a religious nose ring should have nothing to do with whether the cross is there or not. Let's be honest, it's not offensive. The constitution argument is kind of weak in this case. The thing is part if the history of the site..
Who cares. Stop admire it, say a prayer and shake your head at the heathens walking past if it gets you through the day. Ignore it, walk past and laugh at the gullible weekly donaters if that's your thing. It's really not that hard..
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - crash - 05-26-2014
(05-26-2014, 07:16 PM)crash Wrote: I consider myself closer to atheism than to any religion, but I think these guys are just being assholes. They're using this whole thing as a vehicle to raise awareness for atheism per se.
Plenty of Christians died at that site. Plenty of the people that they left behind will be of Christian faith and that cross may give them some comfort. Whether or not I think they're gullible nutfucks being led around by a religious nose ring should have nothing to do with whether the cross is there or not. Let's be honest, it's not offensive. The constitution argument is kind of weak in this case. The thing is part if the history of the site..
Who cares. Stop admire it, say a prayer and shake your head at the heathens walking past if it gets you through the day. Ignore it, walk past and laugh at the gullible weekly donaters if that's your thing. It's really not that hard..
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - BlueTiki - 05-26-2014
(05-26-2014, 06:53 PM)QueenBee Wrote: “We’re arguing for equal treatment in some way, whatever that might be.”
- Edwin Kagin, attorney for American Atheists
In arguments before the U.S. Court of Appeals in Manhattan . . .
I would support Mr. Kagan if his pleading included an attached exhibit depicting a cartooned Mohammed with a caption bubble stating: "Allah never mentioned a cross to me . . . never, never, never!"
How does this douche know if Atheists were among the casualties?
I subscribe to the aphorism, "There are no atheists in foxholes."
Or within the inferno of a collapsing building.
If one is to be outraged about exclusion, then rally for all who aren't included . . . not just your omission.
Selfish, godless bastard.
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - crash - 05-26-2014
Fuck... I don't remember quoting me. Not intentionally anyway. Maybe there is a magic sky daddy and he's sending me a sign...:s
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - HairOfTheDog - 05-26-2014
(05-26-2014, 06:53 PM)QueenBee Wrote: The museum's lawyer, Mark Alcott, told the court that rescue workers took comfort in the cross and they prayed to it as a religious object.
“But there is a difference between displaying an artifact of historical significance and saying we want you [the public] to bless it -- museum-goers understand that distinction” he said, according to London's Telegraph newspaper.
The newspaper said Judge Reena Raggi appeared skeptical of the claims by the atheist group.
“There are countless cases of museums including religious artifacts among their exhibits and it’s going to be described in a way that talks about the history of the object, what is the problem here?” she said. “An argument has been made that you are trying to censor history.”
I think the museum's lawyer and the judge have it right and don't think the atheist activists have a chance in hell of getting the cross removed or having their plaque hung in the museum.
It would surprise me if they even expected to win this suit as there is clearly no violation of the separation of church and state doctrine when it comes to this historical display.
I agree with those who see this suit as being more motivated by a desire for media exposure than a valid claim of discrimination.
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - BlueTiki - 05-26-2014
(05-26-2014, 07:54 PM)crash Wrote: Maybe there is a magic sky daddy and he's sending me a sign...:s
"Brothers and Sisters . . . Can I get a witness?"
"Halleluiah!"
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - QueenBee - 05-26-2014
I simply see it as an artifact, no more no less. So yes, Christians see it as a cross.. and we know Christians give particular significance to the cross. If non Christians or those with little or no religion have an issue, why can't they just look at it and say, cool, a giant letter t
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - Duchess - 05-26-2014
(05-26-2014, 06:53 PM)QueenBee Wrote:
No
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - SIXFOOTERsez - 05-26-2014
No, they should not be allowed to remove the cross, it has nothing to do with Church and State.
If you want equal treatment, fine, over there in the corner prominently displayed is Nothing, Precisely what you believe in, so there you go.
Separation of Church and State means that the church does not get to dictate what the state does, period. It does not mean that you as whatever your religious views are have the right to never see or have to deal with the symbols of what I believe in.
So, if your tax money isn't going to my church and you are not forced to pray to my god, then your rights are protected.
You do not have the right to never be offended, you do not have the right to never be outraged, you do not have the right to infringe on my observation of whatever my faith dictates.
If you do not want to participate, then don't, okay?
You Do have the right to kiss my ass however..
RE: Should Cross at Ground Zero be removed to pacify Atheists? - QueenBee - 05-26-2014
^^^^^WHAT SIX SAID^^^^^^