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+--- Thread: Ramps to build pyramids debunked (/thread-8194.html)
Ramps to build pyramids debunked - cladking - 06-10-2012
Ramps have always been a romantic and hackneyed notion to lift 6 1⁄2 million tons of stone. It's hard to imagine how they came up with such a thing.
Proof that ramps weren't used must wait for the powers that be to use 1970's technology to prove beyond doubt the route of the stones and mode of lifting. They are currently not seeking such information but a virtually air tight case can be made against ramps by observation and logic alone. While innumerable signs point away from ramps I'll try to limit the discussion to only the major points.
Historical accounts say that the stones moved to the pyramid 300' at a time after a priest attached a piece of paper to them. This is inconsistent with ramps. Indeed, there are no historical accounts until more recent times that involve ramps. Herodotus' description almost precisely matches the usage of counterweights. (they were shaped like the dorsal carapace of a grasshopper and composed of "short pieces of wood".) They were built in "battlements" (steps) and the lifting devices could be moved between them.
The culture has no word for "ramps" as applied to lifting objects. There is no such record for the use of this term. While they, no doubt, physically used ramps to lift objects the lack of the word is glaring omission. There is no "god of ramps" and not a single drawing of a ramp from the great pyramid building age.
Far more importantly is there is no overseer of ramp builders, ramp architects, or ramp dismantlers buried anywhere in Egypt. There are no overseers of basket makers, no overseers of harness makers or salve makers. There is not even a single stone dragger or his overseer in evidence. The pyramid town had equal numbers of men and women and was a tiny fraction of the size that would be required to drag stones and build ramps. The town is hardly large enough to supply such a large army with water and supplies far less do all the work themselves. It is little larger than a couple soccer fields. Indeed the builders' town was a mere 300' by 700'. By today's standards this would accomodate only 933 people in an office building. People need far more space where they live. Only about 40% of the population was men so there wouldn't even be nearly enough labor to supply food and water to the thousands necessary to build ramps and drag stones up them. You say ancient people didn't mind being cramped up. Modern sanitation and processes are more efficient than they were in 2750 BC but let's say they were willing to be jammed in cheek to jowel. This only increases occupancy to about 2800 men which is still grossly insufficient. With so many people in close contact disease would spread like wildfire. Since there were storage and production fascilities in the town as well it's highly improbable that there were numbers even approaching these levels.
Logic says that on a gargantuan project that a highly efficient means must be used. Ramps not only are hugely inefficient due to the high friction and high cost of building and dismantling ramps but also because the weight of the team dragging stones to the pyramid top is simply wasted as they walk back down on already constricted and overused ramps. Getting the manpower necessary to build this requires massive ramps because 55 HP being done by men at extraordinarily low efficiency requires vast numbers of men. They couldn't even see the pyramid to build it under the amount of ramping that would be needed to project so much power. Logic says it would be far easier to just drag stones up the side from the top. Friction is reduced to almost nothing since the route of the stones can be greased. The men don't have to lift their own weight and can pull much more effectively from a level surface. The concept that they must have used ramps is absurd when there are numerous better evidenced and easier means.
Maitaining this level of efficient power with muscles alone would require massive ramps and a means for the workers to get back down. Then there is the impossibility of cladding the structure with any possibly evidenced ramping system. Anything that required cladding stones as they went would leave nothing for ramps to adhere to and any other means would require the ramps to be rebuilt to apply the cladding.
Then comes the physical evidence which just puts a nail into the heart of the ramp ideas. Perhaps most glaringly is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever for ramps on the pyramid. This wouldn’t be such a glaring void if not for the existence of numerous vertical lines visible in the pyramids. These lines tend to appear in pairs with one on opposite sides. This is consistent with counterweight operations where one line marks the counterweight and the opposite the route of the stones. It is most highly inconsistent with any ramping ideas. Simply stated ramps wouldn’t leave such lines no matter how they were configured except for ones that can be ruled out by logic such as integral ramps. The grooves on the Great Pyramid are also these routes of the stones that the builders called the “ladders of the Gods”.
![[Image: Giza%20pyramids%20Egypt_20090218143916.jpg]](http://www.puretravel.com/uploadedresources/continents/subcontinents/countries/Giza%20pyramids%20Egypt_20090218143916.jpg)
Simply stated you can see the routes of the stones right up the middles and in two places above the boat museum. You can also see that these pyramids are five step (battlement) pyramids on some pictures but especially in the gravimetric scan half way down the page here;
http://hdbui.blogspot.com/
I have a truly beautiful depiction of these five steps drawn on the scan but can't get permission to use it. But this is still conclusive proof that it's a five step pyramid which is more than adequate to debunk ramps. They would not have used steps unless it was necessary and the only reason steps might be necessary is that they could lift the stones only 81' 3" at a time.
Each of the great pyramids after Djoser’s were five step pyramids. There is simply no reason to build these as step pyramids unless the height of each step defined the height they were able to lift stones. In order to lift stones to the top they must have needed to be relayed the greatest distance they could lift. Of course this could be as simple as the length of the ropes by which they lifted them up the side. No matter the actual reason it simply isn’t consistent with ramps. It is highly consistent with counterweights and using water for ballast since the geyser sprayed 80’ and this is the height of the steps. It might be consistent with locks that lifted 81' 3" at a time or any water or ballast lifting system limited by natural laws or infrastruture/ materiel concerns. It is not consistent with ramps.
Ramps can’t explain the various infrastructure all around and within the pyramid. They are inconsistent with the history, culture, logic, physical evidence, and the evidence left by the actual on-site builders.
Perhaps the greatest inconsistency is the cultural evidence right on site. In the pyramid builders cemetery is the “Overseer of the Boats of Neith”. This would be the loader on the south side in all probability but it could have nothing to do with ramps. There are canal overseers, overseers of metal shops, director of draftsmen, inspector of craftsmen, controller of a boat crew, controller of the side of the pyramid, inspector of metal workers and a host of other jobs that reflect a sophisticated and intelligent culture. Most tellingly is that there is a “Weigher/ Reckoner”. This job would be critical on a device that was said to be sensitive enough to tell the difference in weight of a “heavy heart” from a feather. They found a standard weight in the queens “air siphon” and a hook.
In point of fact there simply isn’t anything consistent with ramps. While the evidence isn’t deep it is very broad that counterweights were used and the vertical lines on the great pyramids are simply sufficient to say ramps are debunked. This scale is tipped so much you’d think there’s nothing on the ascender at all. There were no ramps. They are debunked.
> Would, could or does this water born method apply to other
> pyramids as well?
ALL the great pyramids are five step pyramids (S1 is five steps built on a mastaba). These five steps are the fingers of Geb and the cow was his wing.
I can also add that the literal meaning of the Pyramid Texts has led me to see these things. The literal meaning of the PT will prove to be key in understanding the pyramids and their builders in my opinion.
While ramps are debunked what we do have is evidence that water was used everywhere. The great pyramid are built right on top of water collection devices and surrounded by a cofferdam. There's one pretty obvious lock lying along the route which the western cliff face countwerweight appears to have dragged stones. There is water erosion in canals leading away from the pyramid base.
We need to do the science to determine the exact means by which the water was used to build.
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - IMaDick - 06-10-2012
Excellent read Clad, I have always kinda figured that the trebuchet catapult was developed from the lifting technology of the pyramid builders, weaponised and size reduced to make them more Mobil, but very efficient at lifting loads.
It wouldn't take much of an imagination to see either water or sand as a counter weight or maybe even both with water being used to increase the weight of the sand.
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - Maggot - 06-10-2012
Here are my triangular things pointing towards the moon. Anyone with a knowlege of old albums will know where this came from.
![[Image: cabredo009.jpg]](http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc446/librtyhead/cabredo009.jpg)
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - crash - 06-10-2012
Or anyone that can read the bottom of the poster... Great album just the same.
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - Maggot - 06-10-2012
Shit..........never saw that! And I hung the damn thing up! Its just weird I just hung it up yesterday..........
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - HairOfTheDog - 06-11-2012
When I read Clad's thread, I understand some of it, I think. Intriguing, but admittedly above my head at times. And, I always think of one my top 100 albums which was inspired by the mystery of the Pyramids of Giza. Here's the album cover, I cropped the title.
![[Image: AlbumCover.jpg?t=1339389770]](http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s500/HairOfTheDog1337/AlbumCover.jpg?t=1339389770)
Know this one?
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - crash - 06-11-2012
[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbq3KS6VA-M&feature=youtube_gdata_player [/video]
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - HairOfTheDog - 06-11-2012
You're good, Crash. Not many people I know appreciate the Alan Parsons Project. I like a lot of concept rock from the 70s; Pyramid better than I Robot, but both are good...
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - aussiefriend - 06-11-2012
What sort of guitar is that Maggot?
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - cladking - 06-11-2012
(06-11-2012, 12:45 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: When I read Clad's thread, I understand some of it, I think. Intriguing, but admittedly above my head at times.
D'oh.
I don't explain a lot of the logic in it and worse yet it was written for Egyptologists and those very knowledgeable about the great pyramids in general and G1 (The Great Pyramid) specifically. I should have rewritten it a little and explained more of the facts for more general audiences.
So far no one has wanted to engage me in a refutation because they know that the facts and locic are correct. To a real extent Egyptology is founded on the assumptions that the great pyramids were tombs built with ramps by a changeless and superstitious people. These assumptions will fall like dominoes because they are interdependent and false.
The crashing sound you hear is the ramps collapsing and Egyptology's collective crest falling. They know they aren't going to get away with the assumption of ramps any longer so they've got to fall back and regroup.
G1 is 6 1⁄2 million tons, made of 2 1⁄2 million stones of an average weight of 2 1⁄2 tons and 481' tall. It's highly doubtful all this work could be done with muscle power and there's absolutely no evidence it was. It is cladded with a fine white limestone with invisible seams. It is actually eight sided because each side in indented about 6".
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - username - 06-11-2012
I've read Clad's posts and not only am I convinced that he's made a coherent and fact based argument against the premise of ramps being used, I am slightly turned on. Rawwr! I like the smarties.
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - HairOfTheDog - 06-11-2012
(06-11-2012, 09:04 PM)cladking Wrote:(06-11-2012, 12:45 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: When I read Clad's thread, I understand some of it, I think. Intriguing, but admittedly above my head at times.
D'oh.
I don't explain a lot of the logic in it and worse yet it was written for Egyptologists and those very knowledgeable about the great pyramids in general and G1 (The Great Pyramid) specifically. I should have rewritten it a little and explained more of the facts for more general audiences.
So far no one has wanted to engage me in a refutation because they know that the facts and locic are correct. To a real extent Egyptology is founded on the assumptions that the great pyramids were tombs built with ramps by a changeless and superstitious people. These assumptions will fall like dominoes because they are interdependent and false.
The crashing sound you hear is the ramps collapsing and Egyptology's collective crest falling. They know they aren't going to get away with the assumption of ramps any longer so they've got to fall back and regroup.
G1 is 6 1⁄2 million tons, made of 2 1⁄2 million stones of an average weight of 2 1⁄2 tons and 481' tall. It's highly doubtful all this work could be done with muscle power and there's absolutely no evidence it was. It is cladded with a fine white limestone with invisible seams. It is actually eight sided because each side in indented about 6".
Thanks, Clad. I always read your posts about Egyptology with interest. I don't comment only because I feel wholly unqualified. I will say that you've convinced me that ramps seem rather illogical primarily due to the clearly evident vertical lines in the pyramids. The fact that no reference or worship of ramps exists in the script of the time furthers my agreement with your theory.
However, I'm admittedly ignorant in regards to ancient engineering, so I don't think my agreement means much. If I was qualified to counter a point of yours with which I disagreed, I'd put it out there in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I gain more from you than you can hope to gain from me on this subject. Being that I'm a knowledge sponge and a bit selfish in that regard, I hope you keep posting. I'm understanding more and more all the time. I don't mind being the student. I hope you don't mind being the teacher.
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - cladking - 06-12-2012
(06-11-2012, 09:25 PM)username Wrote: I've read Clad's posts and not only am I convinced that he's made a coherent and fact based argument against the premise of ramps being used, I am slightly turned on. Rawwr! I like the smarties.
I hope I'm not but I might be the exception.
I have a different understanding of everything than most everyone else. Not only is intelligence overrated as a tool but we grossly overestimate our intelligence. We're little smarter than the other creatures on the earth.
But before I lose you altogether let me just say that I'm the first one smart enough to figure it out.
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - Jimbone - 06-12-2012
Everyone knows aliens built the pyramids. Duh.
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - cladking - 06-12-2012
(06-11-2012, 09:33 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: However, I'm admittedly ignorant in regards to ancient engineering, so I don't think my agreement means much. If I was qualified to counter a point of yours with which I disagreed, I'd put it out there in a heartbeat.
I started this trek six years ago when someone posted a picture of G1 on the old Collectors Universe open forum. It was an arial shot with a bus at the bottom to provide scale. I had never realized just how enormous this thing is and knew instinctively that it wasn't built with ramps. Within seconds I figured it must have been built with water filled counterweights and assumed five minutes of googling would prove that impossible but instead I just found more and more confirmation.
One of the most surprising things is that there are no engineers actually studying this thing. Sure, there are engineers around but they are paid by the Egyptologists to work out how they could be built with ramps. There's huge expertise working on it but access to data is strictly limited by what the powers that be are willing to measure. Rather than simply gathering all the available evidence they are force feeding everybody very incomplete data and information. Flinders Petrie essentially invented archaeology and Egyptology but he would be aghast to see what's going on now. Where he measured everything that could be measured with 19th century technology very little modern technology is being employed and mostly they are looking for gold and ramps rather than simply measuring what exists. Everyone is starved for information.
Of course it's not impossible I'm wrong across the board but I have literally thousands of data points that all point at water. Many of these points are nothing but the words of the builders which for some reason I don't understand, no one else can understand. But these words are internally consistent and relatively comprehensive as they apply to ritual associated with the ascension ceremony. It is largely these words that have pointed me to much of the physical evidence, but it's also the physical evidence leading to an understanding of the words.
Everything fits hand in glove.
Of course the worst fit in the theory is that there is no obvious remnant of CO2 geyser activity in the region. I've mostly not addressed this specific argument only because the builders suggested why this is and the answer is so astounding that modern people will not accept it. There are just too many things already for people to get used to without a reinterpretation of the foundational beliefs of religions. Essentially the implication is that religion is misunderstood but built on a far more substantial foundation than the concept of ramps. As far as geyser evidence goes though, it should be remembered that the Giza Plateau is the most heavily disturbed by humans site on the face of the planet. Everything has come and gone except the pyramids themselves and there are likely older structures subsumed by the pyramids.
I've been losing a lot of facts that aren't relevant to my theory. So it's getting more difficult for me to arrange the pieces in any other way. There are still some gaps but I believe that these could be filled quite quickly if the scholars started working on them. It's funny how the mind works. It's funnier how much trouble we have communicating.
It's downright strange how other people don't see the meaning in the PT. It all looks like plain English to me and everyone else sees gobblety gook. Of course I've read it about 180 times now and spent thousands of hours researching virtually every word and each and every plant and animal mentioned. It doesn't bother me at all when they say the stones flew like the fledglings of swallows;
http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/37992519
or that the counterweight ([]nw-boat) was shaped like the dorsal carapace of a grasshopper;
![[Image: fig8.jpg]](http://www.sidney.ars.usda.gov/grasshopper/ID_Tools/F_Guide/images/fig8.jpg)
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - cladking - 06-12-2012
(06-12-2012, 08:43 PM)Jimbone Wrote: Everyone knows aliens built the pyramids. Duh.
I keep saying almost all the alternative theories can simultaneously be mostly right but if even one of them is then the theory that changeless bumpkins dragged tombs up ramps is wholly wrong.
Aliens might have carbonated the aquifer to provide head pressure for the pyramid pump so they could build seed storage devices under the tranmitters atop the pyramid. etc... etc...
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - Jimbone - 06-12-2012
(06-12-2012, 09:18 PM)cladking Wrote: I keep saying almost all the alternative theories can simultaneously be mostly right but if even one of them is then the theory that changeless bumpkins dragged tombs up ramps is wholly wrong.
Aliens might have carbonated the aquifer to provide head pressure for the pyramid pump so they could build seed storage devices under the tranmitters atop the pyramid. etc... etc...
Now you're talking! It was probably this guy... he looks pretty smart:
![[Image: EgyptAliens.jpg]](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-A7bwswXi-bo/TVYTakTvF1I/AAAAAAAAAFM/pTQNq6atrM8/s1600/EgyptAliens.jpg)
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - Lady Cop - 06-12-2012
i already got him with that one Jim.
Clad is VERY smart and not easily fooled!
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - Jimbone - 06-13-2012
Good! At least someone else around here knows the aliens built them.
RE: Ramps to build pyramids debunked - Clang McFly - 06-13-2012
Stargate is not just a TV show it's a documentary of real life events.