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+--- Thread: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION (/thread-9638.html)
EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Duchess - 02-05-2013
The U.S. counterterrorism practice known as extraordinary rendition, in which suspects were quietly moved to secret prisons abroad and often tortured, involved the participation of more than 50 nations, according to a new report to be released Tuesday by the Open Society Foundations.
The OSF report, which offers the first wholesale public accounting of the top-secret program, puts the number of governments that either hosted CIA "black sites," interrogated or tortured prisoners sent by the U.S., or otherwise collaborated in the program at 54. The report also identifies by name 136 prisoners who were at some point subjected to extraordinary rendition.
The number of nations and the names of those detained provide a stark tally of a program that was expanded widely -- critics say recklessly -- by the George W. Bush administration after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and has been heavily condemned in the years since. In December, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), chairwoman of the Senate Select Intelligence Committee, condemned the CIA's detention and interrogation efforts as "terrible mistakes."
Although Bush administration officials said they never intentionally sent terrorism suspects abroad in order to be tortured, the countries where the prisoners seemed to end up -- Egypt, Libya and Syria, among others -- were known to utilize coercive interrogation techniques.
Story
Does the end justify the means?
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Misguided - 02-05-2013
Yes.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Midwest Spy - 02-05-2013
Yes
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Misguided - 02-05-2013
'an they live thru it.Not like the headless victim's they(Muslims) gut and drag thru the streets or hang from overpass's after they are done...for just a few examples.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Misguided - 02-05-2013
They bitch about the video about the fucker with a dogchain around his neck.
Remember the video of Danial Pearl being beheaded and put up on AlJezzera.Did you see it?I did...and the aftermath pic's.
I dont give a fuck at all about the means we use on them to gain info.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Duchess - 02-05-2013
Have you ever considered that those being tortured would say whatever they needed to in order for the torture to stop? That is a consideration that shouldn't be overlooked.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Misguided - 02-05-2013
I agree it should be considered..
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Duchess - 02-05-2013
I'm all for doing what needs to be done in order to protect our country, however, one of the things enclosed in that article details how under torture one man said that Saddam was training Al Qaeda & had weapons of mass destruction, THAT brought about a war, a war where people have died and been maimed for nothing. Our military accomplished nothing in Iraq. The premise for going there was based on a fabrication. That concerns me because it could happen again.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Misguided - 02-05-2013
You believe we accomplished nothing in Iraq?...and also that they never had those weapons?Have you also possibly considered that they were moved out prior to our invasion or hidden instead of the fact they must not have existed?Just a thought to consider just as well as the thought that the info was not correct.
We are so dependant on believing what we read and hear on the news and have little faith on those who are in the shit and making the decisions based on what they are actually seeing and hearing and experiencing.The news stations are so corrupt and biased that nothing can actually be trusted.They should simply be used to get a basic idea of what is happening around us.
Any report or article can be slanted or validated by some sort of study or expert or be put down our throats as truth just in the same sort of way a expert can testify on the "fact" the glove did'nt fit or that Casey Anthony was innocent or that Hillary did'nt know nothin.
We should leave many decisions up to those in the situations who are capable of handling it and stop trying to micro-manage, be politically correct or allow our Politicians to make calls on shit they dont know a godamn thing about or have to implement or live in the consequences of.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Duchess - 02-05-2013
(02-05-2013, 01:27 PM)Misguided Wrote: You believe we accomplished nothing in Iraq?...and also that they never had those weapons?Have you also possibly considered that they were moved out prior to our invasion or hidden instead of the fact they must not have existed?Just a thought to consider just as well as the thought that the info was not correct.
We are so dependant on believing what we read and hear on the news and have little faith on those who are in the shit and making the decisions based on what they are actually seeing and hearing and experiencing.The news stations are so corrupt and biased that nothing can actually be trusted.They should simply be used to get a basic idea of what is happening around us.
Any report or article can be slanted or validated by some sort of study or expert or be put down our throats as truth just in the same sort of way a expert can testify on the "fact" the glove did'nt fit or that Casey Anthony was innocent or that Hillary did'nt know nothin.
We should leave many decisions up to those in the situations who are capable of handling it and stop trying to micro-manage, be politically correct or allow our Politicians to make calls on shit they dont know a godamn thing about or have to implement or live in the consequences of.
No, I don't believe anything was accomplished there outside of creating more bad will & more enemies. I'd like to read what you think was accomplished though, I'm open to reading other opinions regarding that.
I agree with your thoughts about the media. I know I can't believe everything I read.
I'd be happy to leave the decision making up to those who are qualified to make them. Who do you see that being?
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - HairOfTheDog - 02-05-2013
No.
I don't think that the ends justify the means. My biggest objection lies in the fact that the ends (or information, in this context) obtained under such means/tactics can't be trusted.
The consequences resulting from the top Al Qaeda operative's misinformation, obtained under threat of torture, regarding Iraq's possession of WMDs is a glaring example of why I believe that this tactic should be avoided. Hussein had denied accusations related to stockpiling of WMDs for years. Just prior to the US invasion, UN inspection reports had confirmed his claims and found no stockpiling of Iraqi WMDs. Further, the UN inspectors cited increased Iraqi cooperation in disarmament measures (proactive rather than immediate, which still met the conditions of the UN Security Council Resolution 1441). Neverthelesss, based in large part on the word of a terrorist who either chose his own lie to save his skin or said what he believed his captors wanted to hear to save his own skin, the US government (in good faith or otherwise - not looking to argue opinions on that) sold its people and ally countries on a war that stretched out 10 years.
I also object to the tactic because it could (and probably does, imo) go the other way as well. What's to stop a captured terrorist from using extraordinary rendition as a strategic opportunity to lead its captor(s) in whatever direction it wants? "No , don't torture me, it is in fact the xxx faction that blew up that embassy and here's the proof that they're gonna do it again soon!", says the terrorist posing as a member of xxx faction and harboring an agenda to have xxx faction falsely blamed and targeted for the attack. There's nothing to stop such a ruse from being carried out successfully, especially if the captor is already looking for justification to target xxx faction...
I think that excellent field intelligence and undercover operatives, including non-torturous interrogation techniques, are the most effective means by which to counter terrorism. They also happen to be more humane than extraordinary rendition.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Misguided - 02-05-2013
Decision making? Those military leaders and Commanders in the field.
Weapons of mass destruction...ok...did you ever see the pictures that came back from Iraq of Jets that were buried out in the desert?I mean actual flying, weapons equipted,ready to go Jets that were actually buried in the desert to avoid detection and destruction.All they had to do at some point was to just go out and dig them out and put them into use.
Now "weapons of mass destruction" would be differently described by different folks.To me,A jet falls in that catagory as it can be used to deliver different sort of bombs and such for different purposes.In my defination,a weapon of mass destruction would be anything that can kill a mass amount of people such as artillary or large mortars that can fire chemical rounds,Jets,Tanks that can fire said warheads or rounds,...etc.I dont think the only defination of a mass destruction weapon is only a nuclear bomb.
He has used and did store chemical stockpiles.Why we did not find them is defiantly a question but to me,I dont doubt they existed and had them but I just think that they were very sneaky in getting them out of the country just as they were as capable of burying freaking Jets and Tanks and such out in the damn desert without us realizing it.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Misguided - 02-05-2013
No single method or scrap of information is ever used as the sole deciding factor in deciding what action to take.It is always compiled and checked with other methods and info to try to verify facts.Those field and intelligence gatherings add to the information gained by what so liberally is called TORTURE.Torture is defined by many also as the loud music they are also subjected to as a means of sleep deprivation...or yelling screaming threats.Other methods are defiantly more radical,yet I still support their use.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - HairOfTheDog - 02-05-2013
I understand your opinion, Misguided. I just don't share it and don't support extraordinary rendition for the reasons that I presented.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Misguided - 02-05-2013
I understand yours also and respect it and as you said we simply disagree for different reasons.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Maggot - 02-05-2013
I say let the relatives of the people they killed get it out of them.
RE: EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION - Sphincter Cop - 02-06-2013
I enjoy hummus and grape leaves....
So I am undecided.