MYSTERY IN THE SKY - WTF? - MH370 & MH17 & QZ8501 & More

[Duchess]

More & more Russia concerns me.

[HairOfTheDog]

More & more Russia concerns me.

Yeah, no matter which side shot down the plane, it'll be easy for countries already pissed off at Putin to blame it on his hubris, IMO. He's screwed.

This terrible crash with international casualties at the Ukraine/Russian border has pushed the door wide open for western countries to investigate up close and first-hand what the hell is really going on over there. If it turns out Putin was lying and the Russian military has been supporting and supplying the separatists, "screwed" will be an understatement.

I'm not so worried about Russia on the whole as I am about Putin as its leader. I could be wrong, but I sense he's a man with something to prove - with little regard for what his government and people really want.

[Duchess]

I'm not so worried about Russia on the whole as I am about Putin as its leader.

That's what I meant but wasn't clear about. I don't trust him, not a bit. I don't know as he feels he has anything to lose and that makes him even more dangerous in my eyes. I don't know what kind of info would be helpful in those black boxes but I read they were sent to Russia. I'm very uncomfortable having them investigate this, I'd prefer someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight.

[HairOfTheDog]

I hear ya.

I don't think too many people would be comfortable with Russia taking the lead on the investigation. At this time, there's not a lot of trust for Putin and Russia by the countries who lost the most lives.

Plus, it's inappropriate. The plane went down in the Ukraine. Russia trying to take lead on the investigation would cast an image that Russia considers itself responsible for that entire region (rather than annexed Crimea only) and for the actions of the separatists. Those are sentiments/allegations that Putin has been denying to the global community for months.

No way in hell is Russia gonna be permitted to lead the investigation, even if they wanted to do so, IMO.

[Duchess]

I hope this is true -

The 298 passengers and crew aboard MH17 will have been oblivious to the horror as a shrapnel-based missile instantly shredded the doomed plane, experts claim.

The SA-11 missile - known as a Grizzly - that hit the doomed Malaysian Airlines flight is designed to pulverise aircraft on impact.

It will have perforated the plane at various points, ignited the fuel, and taken out the engines and the wings within a split second - meaning the people aboard will have been unconscious almost instantly.

[HairOfTheDog]

I hope it's true as well, Duchess.

It's kinda pissing me off (okay, making me very sad) that the bodies of the 298 passengers are still lying in the field where they crashed. I don't know what would be worse for family members -- not knowing where a plane went down and what happened to your loved one like with MH370, or knowing the exact horrific circumstances and having seen the death scene, but not being able to reach or claim your loved one like with MH17.

The forensic and recovery expertise isn't available in Donetsk, reportedly. And, to get the required professionals to the separatist-surrounded death scene will require a lot of security work and logistics to ensure their safety in the conflict/war zone.

[Maggot]

Obama will do something about this he is sooooo mad!

[HairOfTheDog]

CLARIFICATIONS AND UPDATES

Passengers of 11 Nationalities on Board
-Netherlands: 189 -Malaysia: 44 (including 15 crew and two infants) -Australia: 27 -Indonesia: 12 (including one infant) -United Kingdom: 9 -Germany: 4 -Belgium: 4 -Philippines: 3 -Canada: 1 -New Zealand: 1 -United States: 1 -Unconfirmed nationalities: 3
Note: The NY Post and other media sources reported earlier that 23 Americans were on the flight. That was false; the above numbers were confirmed by Malyasia Airlines.

Recovery and Site Investigation
Recovery experts from Malaysia and the Netherlands are now in the Ukraine, attempting to negotiate with Russian separatists for access to the crash site. Some reports indicate that the scene has been mostly untouched, while others claim that separatists have removed some bodies and taken them to a morgue.

Ukranian officials issued a warning to victims' families that credit cards should be blocked due to reports of looting.

Black Box
Yesterday, media reported that a Ukranian official claimed that the black box / flight recorder was still in the Ukraine. Today, that's been walked back -- no one really knows where it is, but initial reports claimed the separatists had grabbed it right away to send to Russia for analysis.

Flight Path
Malaysia Air was flying at 33,000 feet when it was (reportedly) tracked and (definitely) hit by the missile. It was flying in unrestricted air space on a path still being used by several airlines.

Some airlines had chosen to avoid Eastern Ukraine altogether previously, while others like Malaysia Air followed the international aviation guidelines and flew at the recommended altitude and outside of restricted space.

Who Shot Down the Plane?
Yesterday, US President Obama and US military officials told the media that they are waiting for evidence from the investigation. But, Obama clearly pointed the finger at Russia and Putin, saying that separatists were likely to blame and they couldn't have done it without training and equipment from the Russians. (Five various types Ukranian aircraft had reportedly been shot down by separatists in previous weeks.) Obama said that Putin could put an end to the violence if wanted to and urged him to do so.

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott also made a public statement. “Overnight, a monitoring mission from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe did gain temporary access, but it was driven off by gunfire presumably from the Russians and rebels,” Mr Abbott said.

“This does highlight though the difficulty and danger of this mission.” Mr Abbott said efforts to “sanitise” the site would not be tolerated. “The site needs to be secure … and frankly anyone who tries to obstruct this is no friend of justice and is no friend of peace,” Mr Abbott said.

The Russian Foreign Minister called Abbott's comments "unacceptable" because he "assigned guilt without evidence". I think that's BS, "presumably" isn't definitive and Russia could and should have reeled in the separatists so the scene could be processed safely; they didn't. (Russia's FM must find Obama's statements really really unacceptable.)

The Ukrainian officials have directly stated that the Russian separatists (they call them "terrorists") shot down the plane using equipment supplied by the Russian military.

[HairOfTheDog]

SEPARATISTS / REBELS CAUGHT ON TAPE?

The Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) has released to the media purported tapes of intercepted calls of Russian separatist fighters discussing the shooting down of a Malaysia airliner.

The translated version of the tapes was published by the English-language Kiev Post. Another translated version with some alternate wording was published by the Ukrainian news agency Interfax-Ukraine.

Tape 1:
In the first tape, the SBU says Igor Bezler, a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, is reporting to Col. Vasily Geranin, of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces.

Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).

Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?

IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It's smoking.

VG: How many minutes ago?

IB: About 30 minutes ago.

Tape 2:
The SBU says the next part of the conversation takes place about 40 minutes later and involves a separatist militant nicknamed "Major" who is reporting to another militant nicknamed "Greek" on the downed plane.

"Major": These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin checkpoint. Those Cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.

"Greek": Yes, Major.

"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first "200" (code word for dead person). We have found the first "200." A civilian.

"Greek": Well, what do you have there?

"Major": In short, it was 100 per cent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.

"Greek": Are many people there?

"Major": Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).

"Greek": What kind of aircraft?

"Major": I haven't ascertained this. I haven't been to the main site. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.

"Greek": Is there anything left of the weapon?

"Major": Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.

"Greek": Are there documents?

"Major": Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

Tape 3:
In the third part of the intercepted conversation, Russian-backed Cossack commander Nikolay Kozitsin is speaking to an unidentified separatist.

Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It's a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.

They say on TV it's AN-26 transport plane, but they say it's written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine's territory?

Kozitsin: That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn't be (expletive) flying. There is a war going on.

Source: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world.../12826269/

[Duchess]

I read that the crash scene is being looted. One villager interviewed said a woman's body crashed through her bedroom ceiling and the body is still there, she notified authorities and they told her to leave it there.

[Duchess]

[HairOfTheDog]

Is that first shot the house where the female passenger's body crashed through the ceiling, Duchess?

I hope recovery workers have removed the body from the home now.

So surreal -- the whole incident.

[Duchess]

Yes, it is. Her body has been blurred out at the bottom of the picture.

There is so much information out there but I often can't differentiate between mis-information and fact. I'm trying to be careful. So much finger pointing too as you're probably well aware.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yeah, as tragic as it is, the downing of a flight filled with adults, children, AIDS researchers...from all over the world is a huge card for the Ukranians (and their allies) to play in the rhetoric war between East and West.

The finger-pointing was easily predictable. In this case though, one side and one side only shot that plane down; that side and its supporters (if any) should be skewered publicly and politically, IMO.

Best case scenario, for me: it can be proven that Russian-backed separatists are responsible and this incident can be used to help quash the "conflict" within the Ukraine and the subsequent opportunistic land-grab and power play by Russia (that's just my personal opinion/characterization regarding Russia's actions in the Ukraine this year).

We'll see what the "objective international investigation" reveals, once it truly gets launched.

P.s. I don't worry too much about some fiction getting posted when a big story is developing -- that always happens. As long as I include the source and post a correction/clarification if the news changes, I hope that's okay.

[Duchess]

I hope that's okay.

Absolutely!

[Maggot]

This just in................

[HairOfTheDog]

^ That call was a true fail.

If you're gonna troll an international tragedy, at least make it funny.

Ah well, takes all kinds.

[HairOfTheDog]

I was a little surprised, not in a bad way, by how forthright British Prime Minister Cameron was in his sentiments today.

"If this is the case (that separatists were responsible for downing the plane) then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilizing a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them," he wrote in The Sunday Times newspaper.

"For too long there has been a reluctance on the part of too many European countries to face up to the implications of what is happening in eastern Ukraine," he wrote.

"It is time to make our power, influence and resources count. Our economies are strong and growing in strength.

"And yet we sometimes behave as if we need Russia more than Russia needs us."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/19...02610.html

[Duchess]

The past couple of mornings have been spent running around cyberspace reading everything I can find about this plane crash. It's maddening to read what's being done. The belongings of those unfortunate souls are being taken, cameras, jewelry, books, etc. People are walking around like tourists taking pix. Bodies are rotting and no one is in charge. It all makes me sad & mad and I'm so fucking disgusted. Who rules the men walking around dressed in camo and carrying weapons? They aren't the good guys, that's for sure, they won't give access to those who have come to help.

[HairOfTheDog]

It's really offensive how the bodies of the passengers were left to rot in a field for days.

I understand that it's a huge and complex crime scene to process and the right professionals needed to be assigned and dispatched. But, reports from those on the ground consistently claim that the first international professionals to arrive were limited in their access by drunken separatists.

This morning, media is reporting that the separatists took the bodies away in a refrigerated truck. According to media report, the separatists claim that the bodies and the black boxes are in their possession and will be turned over later to appropriate officials.

What an effin' mess. Putin needs to step up here, in a big way. He always has something to say about what's going down everywhere. This is in his own backyard and now he's quiet. Even if his hands are clean here (slim to no chance of that, IMO), he's coming across as complicit and inhumane.