Fuck Muhammad!!!

[Midwest Spy]

Not bad.

Between the 3 of them they killed 17 people.

The Jihadi Terrorist handbook says a successful terrorist will achieve at least a 3:1 kill ratio.

[Duchess]

I creep on terrorists every now & then and they aren't saying much of anything about all of this. Of course I don't read/speak Arabic but they like to use a lot of pix and I haven't seen any in regards to this.

[HairOfTheDog]

I creep on terrorists every now & then and they aren't saying much of anything about all of this. Of course I don't read/speak Arabic but they like to use a lot of pix and I haven't seen any in regards to this.

Jihadists are using Arabic hashtag "Paris is Burning" on Twitter to praise the killers and post videos and photos from the scenes, along with posting on other on-line venues which are mostly in Arabic.

There are also news sources in other countries running with the "you reap what you sow" philosophy while not directly condoning the attacks.

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8366.htm

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't dispute the potential risk but weren't these people French citizens? I honestly don't know but somehow I assumed that based on some of the reports I heard (spoke flawless French etc).

They're French citizens -- that's confirmed.

Just like the American Army Major, Nidal Hasan, who killed 13 service members at Fort Hood in support of Islam.

And like Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, a Canadian-born citizen who converted and shot a soldier in Ottawa in the name of Islam.

It's messed up. I think countries today face an equal or greater threat of terrorist attacks by radicalized nationals/citizens as they do from foreign insurgency. The organized extremist groups have done a very good (unfortunately) job in electronic marketing and recruitment, IMO. There are thousands of westerners traveling to Iraq, Syria, Yemen...to fight for Islamic fundamentalism, along with western-based individuals hatching jihadist attacks in their own backyards.

Europe has an escalating anti-Islamic wave within the populations, with politicians striving to curb it. This morning I read about ongoing demonstrations in Germany with very large groups of citizens loudly protesting more open immigration policies for Muslims. I hadn't realized the extent of the controversy there until the Charlie Hebdo shootings. Interesting read: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/feature...43869.html

[SIXFOOTERsez]

This kind of thing would go badly here in the U.S. Some parts in particular. We have a Lot of guns on the street, particularly in Texas and Florida. I think the initial attack body count could be just as high, maybe more, but I also think the backlash would be pretty bad also. Easy to see friendly fire "accidents" and the like. Could also be more contributed to the "Citizens that quash crimes" thread.
Wouldn't want this bullshit to spread here, bad ju ju

[Midwest Spy]

Six, we have many more individuals that own guns here, but these attacks aren't coming on some rural property owner's ranch.

This happened in a city where individuals are less likely to carry.

And, even if some guy mustered the courage to confront these guys (kinda like the French cop on the bicycle), he'd be badly outgunned and most likely suffer the same fate as that policeman.

Now, if EVERY citizen carried a weapon at ALL times, then there may be enough of a deterrent to keep terrorists out of our cities.

[HairOfTheDog]

Six, we have many more individuals that own guns here, but these attacks aren't coming on some rural property owner's ranch.

This happened in a city where individuals are less likely to carry.

And, even if some guy mustered the courage to confront these guys (kinda like the French cop on the bicycle), he'd be badly outgunned and most likely suffer the same fate as that policeman.

Now, if EVERY citizen carried a weapon at ALL times, then there may be enough of a deterrent to keep terrorists out of our cities.

The two sets of terrorists took down armed police officers and armed body guards without getting hit. I think that the element of surprise is a huge advantage for heavily armed assailants, whether they're facing armed and trained professionals or armed citizens. I agree with you, MS.

And, the Charlie Hebdo shooters were armed far beyond what normal police, guards, or citizens in any city would or should be -- they had a loaded M82 rocket launcher, two Kalashnikov machine guns and two automatic pistols on them.

I don't know the deal with the 18 year old male who was initially cited as a suspect (turned himself in). But, the other 3 male suspects (all killed) and the female suspect were on French security radar and reportedly fell off regular surveillance when they went for a long period of time without arrest or incident. I think the penalties for any terrorist-related crimes should be much tougher, personally.

The female is reportedly on the run and flew to Syria, according to several different media outlets. A member of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula told media sources that this was an organized hit ordered from Yemen. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's been confirmed that the older brother was in Yemen a couple of years back (I mistakenly posted upthread that it was the younger brother).

Lots of pics and a time line graphic here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...tives.html

[Mohammed]

If just a fraction of these nearly 300,000 new Muslim immigrants follow in the footsteps of the Franco-Algerian brothers who just terrorized Paris, we could be facing chronic terror. The main homeland threat from groups like the Islamic State comes through our immigration system. If they also use our loose policies as a vehicle for jihad, we will face the same crisis as France and the rest of Eurabia.


link

What are you talking about? Follow in the footsteps? You guys had the biggest bloody footsteps on the planet! It all started in America. Many years before 9/11.

There is actually a nice book written about it, I believe it is called "The Terror within", and shows that since many, many years it was in the States that basically all groups who are now on the Terror list, Al Qaeda, Hammas, etc etc, had nice air-conditioned office all across the States, taking wonderful advantage of the freedom you got. Plus of course the nice groceries as well.

You guys have actually a very funny law that is being taken advantage of at the fullest. If Ahmed or Ali is opening a store in the States, he will be considered an immigrant and it takes 7 years to be nationalized I believe. During those 7 years he does not pay tax. Not bad and truly generous, God bless America, but it gets better.

So just before Ali reaches those 7 years and is then considered a tax paying American citizen, he calls over his son, nephew, cousin, whatsoever, from home, puts all the business into his name, no hers there, and the whole process of not paying any taxes keeps running.

We have whole cities build here by those shop owners in the States, mainly Ibb and Taiz.

Anyway, meanwhile in Yemen.

Yes, apparently the older brother was here in 2011, receiving some training from the American born and raised Anwar Al Awlaki, who is dead by now.

I bet the French Embassy here is having a lot of calls coming thru right now, and during that time their Ambassador was truly special. Each and every single time I met that guy, he greeted me with "Allo, I am zee French Ambassador." Happily smiling but clearly somehow dumb.

Of course the day before we had a massive car bomb going off here at 6am, among a crowd of young guys who had spend the night sleeping on the street as they were applying for jobs at the police station. 40 people dead, plenty injured, but Paris took its thunder right the day after.

So it is somehow a strange but clearly happening phenomenon, plenty of guys somehow build up a huge grudge living in the States, UK or France somehow. Be it Al Awlaki, bin Laden, who was well traveled in the West during his younger years and comes from a very cosmopolitan family, the guys who are gone to join ISIS by the hudreds, or even this one:

In prison, he was mentored by the al-Qaeda-linked Djamel Beghal, who himself had spent time at Finsbury Park mosque in London, where he was an associate of the radical cleric Abu Hamza.

I mean seriously, can you guys stop doing this shit?!

HotD, yes, the element of surprise is indeed a huge advantage. I only know of one single guy of many who actually managed to beat that advantage, all else got either taken or are dead. Including highly trained special force guys.

[Duchess]

Mo! You got it fixed! Yay!

[Mohammed]

Not me, YOU!

[username]

You guys have actually a very funny law that is being taken advantage of at the fullest. If Ahmed or Ali is opening a store in the States, he will be considered an immigrant and it takes 7 years to be nationalized I believe. During those 7 years he does not pay tax. Not bad and truly generous, God bless America, but it gets better.

So just before Ali reaches those 7 years and is then considered a tax paying American citizen, he calls over his son, nephew, cousin, whatsoever, from home, puts all the business into his name, no hers there, and the whole process of not paying any taxes keeps running.

So THAT'S why they own all the 7-Eleven's and every other convenience store for miles around here!!!! I thought it was an affection for the donuts and coffee.

Wow. I did not know.

[HairOfTheDog]

Go to see you Mr. Mo.

I saw the terrible news about the massive car bombing at the Yemeni capital early this week. I think a dozen or more schoolgirls were also killed by a Qaeda bomb in Rada a couple of months before that? All effin' sad.

Am I wrong or has al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula become much less discriminating in choosing its targets (and/or less concerned about collateral damage) since a Houthi regime took power from them? It seems, to me, that AQAP used to target mostly high profile victims or those in authority. Now they seem to increasingly be killing people just going about their business.

As for Paris, I'm sure it would rather not have stolen Sana's thunder of carnage, you smart-ass. But, if the Paris Charlie Hebdo attack was launched on directive of AQAP, I'd guess that's what the AQAP hoped for -- all kinds of global exposure and a show of Qaeda force to be gotten from hitting very high profile targets in a western country (foe); a country that hasn't experienced such a successful terrorist attack in a couple of decades. Bombing the Sana Police Academy doesn't generate the same degree of exposure globally; we hear about Qaeda hits in Yemen too often to be highly fazed -- sad reality.

If the Paris attack was AQAP-orchestrated, it could be that further pitting French non-Muslims against French Muslims was one of their primary objectives, I think. As much as I dislike it and as painful as it is to acknowledge, the hit on Charlie Hebdo (and the Jewish deli, for that matter) was quite a victory for Islamic extremists. It gives right wing anti-Islamic leaders in France a bigger spoon with which to stir the pot. If French Muslims start feeling the backlash, some of the weaker and more disgruntled among them will become more susceptible to the Islamic fundamentalist/extremist rhetoric, of that I'm convinced. France is already experiencing escalating anti-Semitism as well, based on my readings. I've been kinda surprised by the rising popularity of Marine Le Pen as of late; she'll definitely be exploiting the attacks to her advantage, IMO.

Anyway, (if you don't mind answering, I'm interested) what are your thoughts on how the Paris attack might affect everyday Muslims in the west? And, do you think PEGIDA in Germany will be able to capitalize on it over the mid to long-term to gain even more popularity? I saw that the Hamburg Daily and a couple of other German papers that republished Charlie Hebdo cartoons were targeted by arsonists this weekend. Really hoping nothing terrible goes down in Dresden in the wake of the Paris attacks.

[Maggot]

Most of the 7-11 are owed by India immigrants. And I really don't want the U.S.A. turning into Europe. Another thing that kinda pisses me off is Obama is not going to Paris. why? It would show United States solidarity against terrorist factions. And Mo yes the U.S. has stomped on people before. I don't like it either and these politicians are always looking for politically correct bullshit. To them its about saving their own skin not whats good for the country. Not all off them but many. They do shit behind the peoples back all the time, then you find out about it. The system of checks and balances are there but the idiots that have more power and sway hide it better.
America is not the only country that does it either. But it may be better than total anarchy,
If I had my way when these things get found out they would be stripped of all benefits they have been given and tossed in a trailer park or urban complex to fend for themselves.

[Mohammed]

I wouldn't have a clue how anything would affect Muslim's in the West as I haven't been in the West, apart from some visits, since 27 years. I like Pegida and what is happening for the simple fact that I am living here among them and we have to adjust ourselves to their rules, so the same should be the other way. I sure can't come to this country and tell everybody to follow my ways, or even better, tell them to provide me a home, food, financial aid, and respect my culture to the stage where I start setting up my pub, well, I did, but you better have your own financial aid for that, and express my freedom of choice by running thru the streets here resembling the Village People. A few actually did try to change the views of the locals here, we had some funky Missionaries here, but half of them are dead by now and the other half has left because of that. So yes, come to Germany and don't even dare to utter the words "Haram!", or go back where you came from. Easy.

And like I said, so many of them actually take advantage of the freedom we have back home. As well as that great anonymity that comes with our cities. Only back home do you find dead people after 7 month sitting in front of their TV. Here such a thing is pretty impossible and how we also take care of us. It's the whole neighborhood that is watching you. Which is also why they find the people here rather easily. Mainly after something has happened so, i.e. the suicide attacks. Al Qaeda here is so strong because they have whole tribes protecting them. And those tribes are many times better equipped than the military.

But yeah, right now with the Houtis on one side and Al Qaeda on the other, it's going wonderfully wild here. The good part is it seems they are so busy with each other that they somehow seem to have forgotten about us. No kidnappings lately, no attacks on foreigners. Nice!

[HairOfTheDog]

Thanks for answering, Mo.

I didn't realize that you hadn't been in the west for nearly 30 years. I understand how that would limit your ability to imagine how an attack by two sets of terrorists -- one with alleged links to AQAP and the other IS -- might affect Muslims living in western societies.

It's hard for me to follow your train of thought though, in terms of "us" and "them" and which, if either, you consider yourself.

I do, however, clearly understand and agree with your assertion that you can't choose to live in in Yemen (which I assume is what you now refer to as "home") and expect Yemenis to adhere to the customs or rights you would have known in Hungary or Germany. Nor can you run through the streets in Village People style without expecting negative repercussions. When in Rome...

But, while I respect your current positions as best I understand them, I am confused as to why you very strongly and passionately suggested early in this thread that western press should refrain from depicting Muhammad whilst mocking Islam (because, I presume, depiction of the prophet is prohibited in Islam and therefore provocative and deeply insulting to Muslims).

What you're saying now and what you said then don't reconcile for me because religious and political satire is indeed a right and custom for citizens of democratic western societies. It reads to me as if your strong and passionate suggestion upthread regarding how western media should self-censor was selfishly motivated, in that such satire might have inconvenient or negative impacts to those of you western-born individuals who have chosen to live and assimilate in Islamic countries, or that such satire might offend your Muslim friends.

Suggesting that freedom of the western press should conform to Muslim sensitives for such reasons is less logical than you running through the streets of Yemen like one of the Village People, IMO. It's more like suggesting that the Village People, whilst performing in NYC, should put their damned shirts on, lose the leather chaps and tight jeans, and pretend to be straight so as not to offend those in predominantly Islamic countries.

Anyway, for me, freedom of religion is important and I like the cultural, racial, and religious diversity found in major western cities. Unless you view violence and/or murder to be righteous or acceptable responses to real or perceived religious insults, I'm not gonna have a problem with you going through the legal motions and putting down roots in my neck of woods -- worship as you please.

Which leads to what appears to me to be the big questions for many non-Muslims: do all/most devout Muslims really believe that violence and death are justifiable responses to real or perceived insults to the prophet, or do only extremist Islamic fundamentalists/terrorists support that interpretation of the Quran in present day? And, what's the ratio of Muslims who believe it's righteous to avenge the prophet by any and all means vs. Muslims who subscribe to the belief that the Quran prohibits violence against anyone who isn't posing an immediate physical threat?

Interesting times...

[Maggot]

I'm not sure if its the media but you sure do hear a shiton more about the violent Muslims than you do the non-violent ones.

[Duchess]

So much of the media is out of control. They exaggerate & embellish, that's the very same thing a gossip does, as well as citing an unnamed source, again, the very same thing a gossip does.

[Mohammed]

HotD, now that you mentioned it I just saw that I was actually commenting on this in .... 2012.

What is so difficult not to do it when you know exactly what's going to happen? I don't call that freedom, I call that some spastic who giggles from behind his safety far away trying to provoke. And trust me, the one doing it surely knows he is provoking as the end result always had been and will be the same.

Now being here in the middle of it all, just as I said, it is a vast minority, but just like in movie halls in the States, it takes a single idiot to ruin your day.

No, I was not saying it is wrong to do such because it is morally wrong, or such should not be done, bla bla. No, I was saying why doing it when you know exactly what WILL happen. And happen it did!

What I am saying is that just like that movie maker in Holland and various others, once you enter that field, Quote "as the end result always had been and will be the same."!!

Eh voila, once again, I said so.

You are dealing with fuckers! Then be prepared to deal with fuckers!!

That's the advantage we have here. It does take its toll, I can't eat with chopsticks anymore for instance since about 6 months, my hand is shaking that much, resulting in a rather entertaining table scene, but we move around here CONSTANTLY expecting to be hit. We open our gates made out of solid 3 meter tall metal sheets to our houses, but not before we scan the road. As we drive, we constantly look around and any strange face or car coming to close will be taken out. We do not walk in public, when we go to the supermarket you scan the whole area, etc etc. We expect to be hit. At anytime.

So if you enter that field, so should you. For if you not, like I said, the end result will find you. And if you come and say "But I am living a free life, in a wonderful place that's world famous for its Croissants and Petit Fours, I should be able to do as I like, mais non?" I'll tell you to wake up!

No, I don't say freedom of the western press should confirm to Muslim sensitives, I'm just saying watch your ass if you stir up those nut jobs! Unlike your surprise attacks in the States that happen in High Schools or Movie Theaters, at least in this case you know when you need to watch out. As soon as you put up anything like that.

Your press knows that very well! Hence you don't see anything like it over there. Or am I wrong?

[Mohammed]

Oh, and something else that comes to mind. That time in 2012 it was indeed still a time when anything that happened outside of here, i.e. Denmark, regarding Blasphemy and the Prophet, we still had some cases that targeted some foreigners here, but not anymore.

Most of them are gone anyway, and the rest simply learned how to take care of themselves. Kinda like those time you guys had with the Indians.

[HairOfTheDog]

You definitely did post about how and why anti-Islamic and Muhammad-mocking expression is the work of idiots who will cause a deadly reaction from the Islamic extremists. You were right about repercussions -- kinda prophetic even, Mohammed.

The attack on Charlie Hebdo as "payback" was not difficult to foresee. Hell, Charlie Hebdo's Paris office had already been bombed and Charb had already been declared a target for years. It's unfortunate that security at the Paris office was not much tougher to breach.

But, were it not the Charlie Hebdo cartoons and artists, those same terrorists would have found another target whom they deemed responsible for one of thousands of other perceived present-day or centuries-old insults to Islam, IMO. It was simply easier to target an office full of well-known satirists than it would have been to target a French military or governmental building, I imagine.

Muslims kill each other in the name of Islam way more than they kill non-Muslims, using different interpretations of the same religious documents as justification. I think that when people are convinced that war is a righteous way of life, it's not difficult for them to find justifications to continue killing and dying over the same old shit. With the ease of internet access across the globe now, it's also not difficult to attract weak-minded violent new recruits from wide and far; recruits who are anxious to belong to something and itching for justification to kill. The Islamic extremists are doing well when it comes to hooking those fish, IMO.

While you may not see a Charlie Hebdo-type publication originating from the U.S. I don't believe that's because we're afraid of becoming targets for avengers of the prophet. That's a silly insinuation. We declared a "war on terror", killed a bunch of Muslims on foreign ground, etc... We've got huge red targets on our chests as it stands. There simply isn't a market for Charlie Hebdo here, IMO, and one only needs to read comments on the internet or visit dedicated anti-religion or anti-Muslim websites to see that freedom of (condemning and blasphemous) speech is alive and well.

We also have our share of violent feeble minded citizens who watch extreme right-wing news or join hate groups/forums and go off on deadly rampages - nothing to do with Islam. Now, we've got Islamic extremists in the mix here as well -- probably hiding in plain site, same as France, Australia, Germany, the UK, etc... Those Islamic extremists are not all here as a result of immigration; many are homegrown converts, I suspect. In any case, I don't see western populations negotiating our freedoms in order to minimize the chances of provoking them to attack, nor do I see us moving from place to place and significantly changing our lifestyles due to fear of forseeable attacks -- just the opposite. Just the opposite is the way it should be, IMO. We pay a price for freedom sometimes, that's just the way it is.

I do think that western societies need to be more aware and vigilant about security and identifying jihadists in the making, however. Edward Snowden made that a little more difficult in the US, IMO. But, we'll be comparing notes with our allies and developing international counter-terrorism strategies to address Islamic threats at home. I don't know if that will include changing immigration policies to discriminate against all Muslims, but I doubt it. I do hope it means a much harder look at anyone seeking residence in the US and very harsh penalties for anyone convicted of terrorist-related activities. I feel strongly that the men who attacked Charlie Hebdo and the Kosher deli should have been in prison, given their criminal records; shame they were put back on the streets so soon.