Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

[Duchess]

People shouldn't be coming and going.

I knew that one of the men had been caught at the supermarket but I don't think I was aware that these people were coming and going at will or even that their visitors were allowed access to them. That's really fucked up if that's the case. It's bullshit and should never been allowed in the first place.

[HairOfTheDog]

People shouldn't be coming and going.

I knew that one of the men had been caught at the supermarket but I don't think I was aware that these people were coming and going at will or even that their visitors were allowed access to them. That's really fucked up if that's the case. It's bullshit and should never been allowed in the first place.

Oh yeah, they're coming and going without issue.

The Bundys are inviting patriots to join them; they can just drive on up and join the illegal occupation.

Yesterday, Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy, and Jon Ritzheimer showed up at the town meeting. The Sheriff and deputies were there. They just walked out and drove back to the wildlife center after the meeting.

I hope bloodshed can be avoided; but this is getting pretty fucking ridiculous. The community is put out, it's costing tax payers a fortune, the employees of the refuge center are not able to work, the militia is rifling through the Native American artifacts (on video) and saying they want to return them to the rightful owners in the tribe so they can be stored better somewhere else...

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/...mmon-bundy

[Duchess]

Yesterday, Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy, and Jon Ritzheimer showed up at the town meeting. The Sheriff and deputies were there. They just walked out and drove back to the wildlife center after the meeting.

That is incredible! It looks to me like they have made LE their bitches.

[sally]

Why couldn't they just arrest them at the town meeting?

[HairOfTheDog]

Yesterday, Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy, and Jon Ritzheimer showed up at the town meeting. The Sheriff and deputies were there. They just walked out and drove back to the wildlife center after the meeting.

That is incredible! It looks to me like they have made LE their bitches.

It does look like that, more so as time passes.

But, LE has let the Bundy militia make clowns of themselves by not taking the bait and treating them as a negligible non-threat.

When the occupiers appealed to the public for supplies, they were mostly sent dildos, lip gloss, glitter nail polish...

I know LE would rather have them leave willingly in defeat or humiliation, the question is how long will that take (if it's even a realistic possibility).

Finicum, who's been the Bundy media spokesperson of late, said yesterday that it's never gonna happen. I think it's time LE helps to make it happen. Ask them again to vacate. If they won't, start cutting off their access.

[HairOfTheDog]

Why couldn't they just arrest them at the town meeting?

Judge Grasty asked the same thing. He said it would have been an ideal spot to do it.

Maybe LE was afraid of inflaming the militia members back at the wildlife center and what they might have done in retaliation. Maybe they were afraid the Bundys or their armed "security detail" would have resisted arrest and didn't want a shoot out in a public space. IDK.

I think the FBI is calling the shots and the local LE is just following the game plan. But, it's been 3 weeks now and the governor, the townspeople, other ranchers, the local tribe, and the judge all think it's time to change the rules.

[Cutz]

But, I don't know whether he has the courage to do that, nor whether he has much control over the bunch he's managed to wrangle up.

Agree. When you actually go Lord of the Flies, you don't want to turn from Ralph to Piggy. I'm sure he wonders if he decides to cave if his most hardline guys won't hurt him and take control.

[F.U.]

I hope it doesn't come to that F.U. It's possible in this case that the militia can have all electricity, water, and comings and goings cut off and be driven out. That has not been attempted yet.

If Bundy militia members end up getting killed by themselves or LE, it will be way less sad to me than WACO -- it will be by their own orchestration. I get the sense that at least a couple of them are looking for a cause to martyr themselves over anyway.

In WACO the government tried to drive the cult out of their own home/compound. More than 50 adult members were willing (or forced?) to die and let their children die rather than leave the compound and their leader. The Branch Davidians weren't trying to provoke an armed conflict with LE when they were descended upon by the ATF, they were instead trying to stay off the radar.

The Oregon situation is different. The Bundy Bunch aren't in their own home. They're outsiders. They're not trying to hide from the government's view and avoid conflict, they're very publicly trying to provoke a stand-off with the government using criminal means and demanding ransom.

If any of the Bundy militia members have brought in their children from out of state to join the illegal occupation (thereby using them as shields/buffers to LE action), they're fucked up child abusers too. I hope they're not such low-lifes as to have done that.

Ammon Bundy should do the right thing and fold, his demands won't be met and he has very little support from the very people he claims to be championing. But, I don't know whether he has the courage to do that, nor whether he has much control over the bunch he's managed to wrangle up.

I wasn't thinking about the kids. I was thinking of the way the Gov. Leo , or who ever dealt with the situation.

[HairOfTheDog]

The situation has been dealt with by local, state, and federal law enforcement completely opposite from how they dealt with WACO. LE in Oregon is standing all the way back, instead of surrounding and attempting to drive out by force the armed occupants as they did in Texas.

Except for the possibility of it ending with extremist and/or LEO deaths, which is what LE is trying to avoid, the occupation at the Oregon wildlife center has very little in common with the WACO situation.

Anyway, I'm glad authorities learned from the WACO outcome and have changed tactics when dealing with groups of armed extremists. If they say they're willing to kill or die rather than surrender, it should not be taken lightly. The hands-off approach by LE hasn't ended the occupation, but it has taken power away from the extremists and allowed them to show the public who they really are, to their detriment. That's been very effective for LE.

As a result, LE is now being asked and even demanded by the public to take action. In my opinion, LE has secured the green light to start moving to the right in their tactics in order to end the occupation, without later being accused of rushing in like a military force and acting too aggressively.

If the occupiers have gone so low as to bring children to the site, I think they'll be held in even lower regard by the local and general public, but they will probably have succeeded in limiting LE strategies to end the occupation. I hope the occupiers haven't pulled that ultimate pussy move, but it won't surprise me if they have.

[F.U.]

All I am saying is I can smell the end turning out like Waco. Storm the place and kill em all. I am not comparing the situation to Waco, just the ending. Rat-a-tat-tat Rat-a-tat-tat Rat-a-tat-tat.

[HairOfTheDog]

LE didn't storm the place and kill them all with rat-a-tat-tat in WACO, F.U.

LE surrounded the place and negotiated with Koresh, who allowed some Branch Davidians to leave early on. Then, Koresh changed directions and refused to negotiate a surrender, claiming he had a divine mission (something Ammon Bundy has also alluded to).

After that and knowing that children were being sexually abused at the WACO compound, LE tried to drive the members out with sleep deprivation tactics, which didn't work and probably only heightened their paranoia and made Koresh's "end of days" prophecies appear validated to the members who chose to stay in the compound.

WACO didn't end with a rat-a-tat-tat, it started with a rat-a-tat-tat by Davidian security members when the ATF went to raid the compound for alleged weapons violations on day 1 . It ended with a fire at the compound killing 76 members on day 51. There was a lot of a speculation that the government had started the fire, but later investigation (which is still contested by some) concluded that the fire was started by the Davidians who chose to end the conflict by committing mass suicide/murder.

[Duchess]

I'm not getting what I demand so I would rather die. Wah. Wah. Wah.

[F.U.]

LE didn't storm the place and kill them all with rat-a-tat-tat in WACO, F.U.

LE surrounded the place and negotiated with Koresh, who allowed some Branch Davidians to leave early on. Then, Koresh changed directions and refused to negotiate a surrender, claiming he had a divine mission (something Ammon Bundy has also alluded to).

After that and knowing that children were being sexually abused at the WACO compound, LE tried to drive the members out with sleep deprivation tactics, which didn't work and probably only heightened their paranoia and made Koresh's "end of days" prophecies appear validated to the members who chose to stay in the compound.

WACO didn't end with a rat-a-tat-tat, it started with a rat-a-tat-tat by Davidian security members when the ATF went to raid the compound for alleged weapons violations on day 1 . It ended with a fire at the compound killing 76 members on day 51. There was a lot of a speculation that the government had started the fire, but later investigation (which is still contested by some) concluded that the fire was started by the Davidians who chose to end the conflict by committing mass suicide/murder.

I watched it happen also HotD, I remember the tank poking holes in the walls. The Gov will get their way sooner or later. By bull horn or bazooka , they don't care.

[HairOfTheDog]

I saw it too, F.U.

I saw the tank and wished that hadn't happened.

Nonetheless, WACO did not end with a rat-a-tat-tat by LE.

[Maggot]

Ruby Ridge did.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yes, Ruby Ridge did start and end with rat-a-tat-tat.

And, it too was a case of a failed government LE attempt to raid a family on the family's own property in response to alleged weapons violations.

That is not similar to the Oregon occupation where armed extremists have illegally taken over other people's property and made public demands of the government, threatening never to leave and to kill or die if the government tries to evict them or doesn't give them what they want.

Anyway, the government doesn't want another outcome like either WACO or Ruby Ridge. I'm sure they don't want the Bundy bunch to light the refuge center on fire and kill themselves like at WACO. Likewise, they don't want to lose LEOs or militia members to rat-a-tat-tat stand-off like at Ruby Ridge.

[HairOfTheDog]

The FBI on Thursday defended its response to an armed group that has occupied an Oregon wildlife refuge for weeks, calling it "deliberate and measured" as it seeks a peaceful solution.

The statement by the FBI came a day after Oregon Governor Kate Brown called the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge "absolutely intolerable."

"The FBI recognizes that many in the community have questions about why we are here and our role in helping to end the occupation of the wildlife refuge," the FBI said Thursday.

"This occupation has caused tremendous disruption and hardship for the people of Harney County, and our response has been deliberate and measured as we seek a peaceful resolution," the FBI said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-...ge-n501611

[F.U.]

I don't buy the hole, they started the fire themselves. I think the fire was started as a result of that tank ramming the building.

[HairOfTheDog]

I didn't initially accept as fact that the Davidians had started the fire either, F.U. I waited to see the results of the investigation.

I believe the Davidians lit the fire when the government started getting more aggressive in their attempts to drive them out of the compound. That's what the facts indicate, but I don't expect that anti-government types will ever believe it, which is fine.

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberatley set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.) LINK: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...pten2.html

I do however fault the government for starting the conflict. The ATF miscalculated who would be at the compound when they went to serve the weapons-related search warrant and ended up losing LEOs and several Davidians in that initial conflict.

Also, the weapons that the Davidians were stockpiling were all legal. The search warrant was secured based on an agent's contention that the legally-acquired weapons had probably been modified to illegal sawed-offs and fully automatics. The later investigation produced evidence proving that the agent's suspicions were wrong.

I think government officials did in fact care about the Davidians and regretted deeply the deaths (aside from Koresh's). But, the government's tactics helped pushed Koresh into Jim Jones mode, in my opinion.

Anyway, it's good to see that authorities have learned from their miscalculations at Ruby Ridge and WACO.

[F.U.]

It must be true, it says so on the internet. Plus our gov says so.

I still don't buy it. I think the fire was a result of the tank. Just because there were several fires at the same time dose not rule out that fact. I wouldn't put it past the gov to burn the place down in hopes of covering up as much of their botched attack on these people.
But I do look at it the same way you do on todays events. Hopefully they learned from their past screw ups [and not just learn a better way to cover their actions up] and don't make the same mistake again.