ISRAEL VS. PALESTINE...AGAIN

[rothschild]

“A land without people and a people without land” is falsely attributed to the precepts of Zionism . . . as is your claim of ethnic cleansing, being a fundamental principle of Zionism.  It is patently anti-Zionism propaganda.

The land-people quote was a slogan among Zionists, having nothing to do with "precepts". I never stated that ethnic cleansing was/is a fundamental principle of Zionism. It's openly acknowledged in Zionist circles. A Zionist military report, referenced by Israeli historian Benny Morris' in his book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947—1949, concluded that the Palestinian exodus was primarily the result of Zionist military and paramilitary operations. In a 2004 interview with Haaretz conducted by Ari Shavit, Morris stated that:

"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21^st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide—the annihilation of your people—I prefer ethnic cleansing."

Do you stand with Morris, Tiki? Would extermination have been inevitable without the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

The world, and those Arab countries ceding the land (as did the Jewish immigrants), knew the land for the creation of Israel was occupied . . . including the newly formed United Nations. The Arabs willingly tossed the inhabitants (of the land that would become Israel) under the bus and then broke promises, made to these indigenous people, regarding their rights and independence.

If the land had been formally ceded, as you claim, Morris would not have acknowledged the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians because it would have been precluded by the lawful imposition of a partition plan. The only authority that could have ordered the partition of Palestine was the UN Security Council. It never took up the UN general Assembly partition proposal for consideration. The Zionists unilaterally established Israel by means of military force, which began in 1947, prior to the Arab-Israeli war of 1948. 

You asked: If I'd said "death to South Africa" during the time of apartheid, do you honestly believe that would by necessity be calling for the death of all Afrikaners?

No.  I would believe you meant the destruction of every institution and person that perpetuates South Africa, as it currently exists . . . not just apartheid.  Why wouldn’t I?

It would be completely nonsensical to interpret "nation" in that manner given the global awareness of apartheid. You'd be assuming advocation for the extermination of the victims of apartheid on the basis of opposition to apartheid. 

You stated: I've shown that "nation" doesn't necessarily refer to the people who live in it, yet you insist there is only one correct interpretation in spite of the fact that Zionism is the core institution of Israel. Is it implausible that people who say "death to Israel" hate Zionism rather than Jews per se? Hardly.

Is it implausible that “Death to Israel” means just that?  Hardly!  As it is subject to interpretation, it is an overly broad and dangerous statement.

Again, why am I forced to mind-read intent? If you are against a specific ideology, institution or practice JUST SAY IT and remove any ambiguity.  I interpret “Death to Israel” as a literal statement . . . not hyperbole or a reference to a specific practice or practices.  FFS!  Say what you mean. 
 
Why should I be forced to become a mind reader and guess what people mean when they say, “Death to Israel”?  Why?

Keep on dancing!

Reading minds isn't within the realm of possibility, rational interpretation is; which in this instance means acknowledging that there isn't a single, universally correct interpretation. We can estimate probabilities with a degree of accuracy, or we can assume the worst and make claims along the lines of "they want to exterminate the Jews!", which is no less ambiguous than "death to Israel".

Asking why you should be forced to allow for all possibilities is an improvement over claiming there's no ambiguity. A small improvement, but an improvement nonetheless.

[Duchess]

I got nothin'.

[BlueTiki]

I got nothin'.

I do.

He's full of bullshit and claims the ONLY interpretation of statements is exclusively what he says they represent.

I'm done dancing with an egocentric, closed-minded, self-righteous stooge.

[rothschild]

He's full of bullshit and claims the ONLY interpretation of statements is exclusively what he says they represent.

That's an odd thing to say after I had just stated that there *isn't* a single, universally correct interpretation.

[rothschild]

Interview with Israeli historian Ilan Pappé discussing the carnage in Gaza.





Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin: more than 25,000 women and children have been killed by Israel since October 7, 2023.

[Duchess]

Goddamn I hate that our country gives any fuckin' thing to Israel while Bibi is running things. I don't like him, I don't trust him and I know damn well I'm not alone in that thought.

[rothschild]

Goddamn I hate that our country gives any fuckin' thing to Israel while Bibi is running things. I don't like him, I don't trust him and I know damn well I'm not alone in that thought.

Bibi is PM because Israel is a corrupt society. We're stuck with Biden vs Trump because America is a corrupt society. The institutions that comprise a society determine the quality of leadership it will produce. Getting rid of a bad leader does nothing to fix institutional corruption. All it does is create a vacuum that will quickly be filled with another leader that reflects the institutional state of decay.

The world was filled with revulsion when it realized what Nazi Germany had done. I think the same thing is happening now. The world is waking up to the corruption that permeates human society and is sickened by what it sees, and that's the best thing that could possibly happen, IMO.

[BlueTiki]

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin: more than 25,000 women and children have been killed by Israel since October 7, 2023.

Whew!  Praise Allah no men were killed!

Must be a Bidenomic thing . . . cheaper to support (through US taxpayer aid) a widower . . . rather a than a widow and her brood.

Finally!  An economic policy, from this administration, I can get behind!

[rothschild]

Imagine the savings if it was applied to Jews!

[BlueTiki]

Imagine the savings if it was applied to Jews!

I believe that was tried once . . . but it didn't involve US taxpayer dollars.  Not with the Israelis, though.

Maybe it's time for an "Oi for an Oi"?

As an aside . . . I doubt that "Thoroughly Modern Milley" knew the chosen pronouns, of those killed.

[Duchess]

Tonight in Tel Aviv -

[rothschild]

So many fault lines being exposed as a result of Israel's slaughter of non-Jews. In times like these you find out who a person really is. On the left and on the right.

[BlueTiki]

Tonight in Tel Aviv -

This type of protest is the sign of a free society . . . unafraid (or willing to accept the consequences) to openly voice their opinions.

I can only wonder why the Palestinian "civilians" have not marched openly against their militant, Islamic government.

Perhaps this is a freedom, not afforded to them, by Hamas.

Or  . . . they are in absolute lock-step, with Hamas, with the genocide of the Jews and other Israeli infidels.

[rothschild]

Was the Warsaw Ghetto a "free society", Tiki?

[Duchess]

Bibi murdered 7 members of the World Central Kitchen who were in Gaza feeding those dying of starvation.

https://wck.org/news/gaza-team-update

[BigMark]

Their food was the bomb!

[rothschild]

Bibi murdered 7 members of the World Central Kitchen who were in Gaza feeding those dying of starvation.

https://wck.org/news/gaza-team-update

A recent poll in Israel shows that 50% of the people think their gov't is using the right amount of force in Gaza, and 40% think that more force should be used.

If Bibi goes it won't get better, and could get worse.

Israel is a pariah state in my book.

[Duchess]

I hate that my country is playing a role in the indiscriminate bombing. It disgusts me.

[BlueTiki]

Was the Warsaw Ghetto a "free society", Tiki?

Not even close to a valid analogy, RC.

Just another emotional rationalization.

[rothschild]

Was the Warsaw Ghetto a "free society", Tiki?

Not even close to a valid analogy, RC.

Just another emotional rationalization.

That's interesting because in 2004 Giora Eiland described Gaza as a huge concentration camp. Who is Giora Eiland? The former head of Israel's National Security Council. I guess he didn't get the memo.

Since 2004 the conditions in Gaza have significantly worsened. There is no economy to speak of. No trade is permitted. There is no clean water. There is an inadequate food supply. Travel is severely restrained. 50% of the people are children who have grown up with no hope for a better future.

October 7, in my opinion, is the modern day equivalent of the Nat Turner rebellion. When you treat human beings like animals, it's only a matter of time before something horrible happens.

Nat Turner inspired John brown, who posthumously became a hero of the Union army. To you he would have been a terrorist, I suppose. A violent heathen who murdered 60 whites. I view him as a man who had had enough of being subjugated by people who saw him as something less than a human being.