Is this racist?

[Maggot]

It sounds like you're saying...If a group with whom you identify disagrees with the law, breaks it by destroying government property, has their day in court, is found guilty and is sentenced.........it's okay for armed protesters to illegally invade government property, and challenge law enforcement to a stand-off because it's an appropriate response to perceived overreach?

But, if government-employed law enforcement officers kill an adult or child and an unarmed group with whom you don't identify protests what they see as fatal overreach and demand their day in court, you consider that bullshit to be condemned. AND, if a subgroup of that group of protesters invades private or government owned property, they are thugs who deserve to be physically removed and incarcerated by the government because it's not an appropriate response to perceived overreach?

Am I understanding you correctly, Maggot?

I believe they will be removed the way they are going about their protest is just as wrong as the occupy movement or the BLM movement is. Standing in a road and blocking traffic is just as wrong as occupying a far out wilderness station.
You seem to be saying its OK for a government agency to despoil a river yet its OK to throw people in jail for improving their livelihood.

Adub............this has nothing to do with race and you know it.

[HairOfTheDog]

It doesn't seem like that's what I was saying, Maggot, because I didnt consider the despoiled river reference relevant and thus didn't address it at all.

It would be relevant if armed environmentalists illegally occupied the EPA building or forced an armed stand-off at the despoiled river. That would be comparable to the Bundy bullshit going down now in Oregon and comparable to the looting of private or government property. All of it is criminal activity. Period.

Invoking first amendment rights to protest without taking criminal action is always cool by me, however, whether I agree with the cause or not.

[Maggot]

It doesn't seem like that's what I was saying, Maggot, because I didnt consider the despoiled river reference relevant and thus didn't address it at all.

It would be relevant if armed environmentalists illegally occupied the EPA building or forced an armed stand-off at the despoiled river. That would be comparable to the Bundy bullshit going down now in Oregon and comparable to the looting of private or government property. All of it is criminal activity. Period.

Invoking first amendment rights to protest without taking criminal action is always cool by me, however, whether I agree with the cause or not.

So what your saying if I understand you is that one wrong done by someone else does not warrant another wrong done to someone else that has nothing to do with them correct?

[Adub]

The gov't deals with whites differently. That is racist. Wondering if any of these militia men appeared to reach for their waistband and caused LE to fear for their lives, lolol. Not really funny. Has the riot police been called out yet. Is LE lobbing tear gas canisters into the building to get these armed assholes out? WTF is going on. My take is that a whole lot of understanding amongst white folks is what is going on.

[Maggot]

The gov't deals with whites differently. That is racist. Wondering if any of these militia men appeared to reach for their waistband and caused LE to fear for their lives, lolol. Not really funny. Has the riot police been called out yet. Is LE lobbing tear gas canisters into the building to get these armed assholes out? WTF is going on. My take is that a whole lot of understanding amongst white folks is what is going on.

They're out in the woods and have not messed with any of the people working out in that far flung hole. They are not shooting up the place. Its not like a city where they are taking over a block or something. And they are not running from some dimestore robbery. Hell do you really think because they are white nothing is happening? The place will be swarmed in a few hrs and they will be arrested. But they wont be running away when a cop says stop.
Its not racial no matter how much you try and convince yourself it is.

[HairOfTheDog]

No. That's not what I was saying Maggot.

I was saying that criminal activity as a form of protesting against the government is no less criminal in cases where you happen to identify or agree with the protesters and/or the cause.

[Adub]

The gov't deals with whites differently. That is racist. Wondering if any of these militia men appeared to reach for their waistband and caused LE to fear for their lives, lolol. Not really funny. Has the riot police been called out yet. Is LE lobbing tear gas canisters into the building to get these armed assholes out? WTF is going on. My take is that a whole lot of understanding amongst white folks is what is going on.

They're out in the woods and have not messed with any of the people working out in that far flung hole. They are not shooting up the place. Its not like a city where they are taking over a block or something. And they are not running from some dimestore robbery. Hell do you really think because they are white nothing is happening? The place will be swarmed in a few hrs and they will be arrested. But they wont be running away when a cop says stop.
Its not racial no matter how much you try and convince yourself it is.

I know maggot. I get it. It's just that what the militia is doing there is wrongo bongo. No two ways about it. They are creating a situation in an American town to further their own agenda. It is political terrorism at its American finest. These guys weren't just living their lives, and minding their own business. They are intentionally breaking laws and seeking attention. Oregon is being used. For political gain by the militant so called Patriots with their pocket constitution. It is probably in their favor that Obama is the POTUS.

[blueberryhill]

The gov't deals with whites differently. That is racist. Wondering if any of these militia men appeared to reach for their waistband and caused LE to fear for their lives, lolol. Not really funny. Has the riot police been called out yet. Is LE lobbing tear gas canisters into the building to get these armed assholes out? WTF is going on. My take is that a whole lot of understanding amongst white folks is what is going on.

They're out in the woods and have not messed with any of the people working out in that far flung hole. They are not shooting up the place. Its not like a city where they are taking over a block or something. And they are not running from some dimestore robbery. Hell do you really think because they are white nothing is happening? The place will be swarmed in a few hrs and they will be arrested. But they wont be running away when a cop says stop.
Its not racial no matter how much you try and convince yourself it is.

I don't think this is racial, either, but these guys are domestic terrorists and think their individual rights supersede the rights of the people...I want them out of my birdhouse. That "house" is for wildlife not wild men with guns.......

[Maggot]

I see it as people bringing attention to injustice. In this case its the government taking land that has been used for generations. With BLM they too are bringing attention to injustice.
Barring people from going about their business is one way, using a wilderness outpost is another. I don't believe either one is willing to commit suicide for their cause but we shall see how heavy the hand of government is and if it is ready to satisfy the grievance brought forth.
they have a legitimate gripe that obviously has not been satisfied through the court system.

I for the life of me don't understand why the Bundy's would pursue it this way unless they are the spokespeople for a larger group of people that feel they have been screwed. If so they need to speak now while the media attention is focused on them. As Julian Assange said " We have to be careful about applying criminal labels to people until we're very sure."

[Adub]

I see it as people bringing attention to injustice. In this case its the government taking land that has been used for generations. With BLM they too are bringing attention to injustice.
Barring people from going about their business is one way, using a wilderness outpost is another. I don't believe either one is willing to commit suicide for their cause but we shall see how heavy the hand of government is and if it is ready to satisfy the grievance brought forth.
they have a legitimate gripe that obviously has not been satisfied through the court system.

I for the life of me don't understand why the Bundy's would pursue it this way unless they are the spokespeople for a larger group of people that feel they have been screwed. If so they need to speak now while the media attention is focused on them. As Julian Assange said " We have to be careful about applying criminal labels to people until we're very sure."

Well that is mighty white of you to acknowledge that BLM and these militia thugs (that have never known a day of injustice against them) have something in common. Mighty white.

[Adub]

I spend too much time on twitter,
This one was amusing

koush ‏@koush · 9h9 hours ago
Today I learned:
plural of armed black people is thugs
plural of armed brown people is terrorists
plural of armed white people is militia

[HairOfTheDog]

I know maggot. I get it. It's just that what the militia is doing there is wrongo bongo. No two ways about it. They are creating a situation in an American town to further their own agenda. It is political terrorism at its American finest. These guys weren't just living their lives, and minding their own business. They are intentionally breaking laws and seeking attention. Oregon is being used. For political gain by the militant so called Patriots with their pocket constitution. It is probably in their favor that Obama is the POTUS.

The Bundy boys are beckoning patriots to grab their guns and head to Oregon to join them in their violent threats. They've got food even!, so they boast.

The Hammonds, whose troubles the Bundys have hijacked to forward their own agenda, don't support the Bundys occupation or their violent threats. The vast majority of the Burns' population doesn't want the Bundy anti-government posse in their town. But, the Bundys and company don't give a shit.

They are now demanding that the government forfeit federal land in the Oregon region -- that's their real goal. They're not demanding that it be returned to the Native Americans from whom it was taken. They're demanding it be to turned over to the locals and ranchers like themselves.

Ryan Bundy told The Oregonian's Ian Kullgren that the militiamen are "willing to kill and be killed if necessary." He says the armed interlopers are prepared to stay there for years. They're essentially holding the property hostage and explicitly threatening to kill if they don't get what they want.

I very rarely use the terms 'hate crime' and 'domestic terrorism'. These guys are domestic terrorists. Their father and his armed militia succeeded in pushing off the Feds (who didn't want another Ruby Ridge type situation) by using the same types of tactics. I hope the Feds don't fold this time -- it only encourages more such so-called 'patriots' to use violent threats to get their way.

[Love Child]

I hope for a peaceful outcome.

I looked up the definition of terrorist, thug and militia.

I spend too much time on twitter,
This one was amusing

koush ‏@koush · 9h9 hours ago
Today I learned:
plural of armed black people is thugs
plural of armed brown people is terrorists
plural of armed white people is militia

Militia: Defense activity or service, to protect a community, its territory, property, and laws.
Also:
a group of people who are not part of the armed forces of a country but are trained like soldiers

Terrorist: the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal
Also:
Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes

Thug: a violent criminal

[Love Child]

The definitions could also be represented by these smilies:







Here also are parts of the problem:

[Duchess]

Ryan Bundy told The Oregonian's Ian Kullgren that the militiamen are "willing to kill and be killed if necessary." He says the armed interlopers are prepared to stay there for years. They're essentially holding the property hostage and explicitly threatening to kill if they don't get what they want.

I can't help but feel if that were a group of black men or even brown or red, LEO's would be all over that property like white on rice. They wouldn't sit still and be threatened by those people, they would take action. Those hicks are threatening to kill people! As far as I can tell the cops have rolled over like a dog. Do something! Treat them like you would black men.

[Maggot]

Making them basketball players wont help in this situation.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think federal law enforcement is doing the right thing, for now.

The Bundys said yesterday that they're looking to start a nationwide movement against the government and want to use the wildlife center in Oregon as their headquarters. LE/government isn't giving the militia the armed stand-off they're trying to provoke. Even though the militia is breaking the law, there are currently no civilian lives endangered and authorities are looking to avoid bloodshed.

That's similar to the approach Baltimore city government and LE took when they refrained from using physical and lethal force to stop angry citizens from damaging and stealing property during the Freddy Gray protests, and no community members or law enforcement officers were physically hurt.

Anyway, I hope this armed occupation in Oregon ends without bloodshed too. And, if it does, I hope the militia members are arrested for breaking and entering, destruction of property, or whatever charges are appropriate -- like the rioters/looters in Baltimore who were arrested on the way out. There should be consequences.

However, when Cliven Bundy organized an armed militia against federal law enforcement, he got a lot of media attention, federal law enforcement backed down and gave him back his cattle to avoid bloodshed. Cliven still hasn't paid his taxes and he continues to duck court appearances scheduled to resolve the matter legally. Essentially, Cliven Bundy broke the law for 20 years, broke the law in protest of being held accountable for breaking the law, continues to break the law, and there have been no apparent legal consequences. I think that's probably emboldened his sons and others who feel above the law.

Anyway, to me, BLM seems much more savvy than the Bundy movement. The black activists aren't resorting to guns and threats of violence to affect change. They're using their brains and voices and the media to reach politicians who can help affect change. I don't always share their views, but I'm relieved the BLM leaders' strategy does not involve using guns against law enforcement officers.

[Midwest Spy]

Sorry, HotD, but BLM, at least in my hometown, has protested over criminals and thugs and their perceived abuse at the hands of law enforcement.

They are also protesting 'white priviledge' so they're unhappy with many societal issues.

The black folks I know are not impressed with who/what they're protesting.

[HairOfTheDog]

What does whether or not you and the black folks you know agree with the BLM cause/message have to do with the fact that I'm relieved BLM isn't using guns as part of their protest strategy?

[Love Child]

BLM: Bureau of Land Management or
Black Lives Matter?!??!

Now I have to re-read this thread.

Also, did the Bundys really call for snacks/care packages to be sent to them? I think it is a rumor I saw on twitter.