Ferguson & St. Louis, MO -- Deaths and Protests

[Maggot]

I feel that way about "hate crime", "bullying", "victim" and a lot of other words too.

This statement has absolutely nothing to do with what is defined legally as "domestic terrorism" they are words that you are using to micromanage the situation in Ferguson.

Maybe we should "review" the definition of racial crime, harassment and defendant.

[HairOfTheDog]

I feel that way about "hate crime", "bullying", "victim" and a lot of other words too.

This statement has absolutely nothing to do with what is defined legally as "domestic terrorism" they are words that you are using to micromanage the situation in Ferguson.

Maybe we should "review" the definition of racial crime, harassment and defendant.

I meant exactly what I said, Maggot -- nothing more. I gave three examples of terms whose meanings I think get diluted by being assigned to situations to which they don't apply. I think "terrorism" is in danger of heading in the same direction. I didn't connect each of the three examples to each other nor to "terrorism".

I respect that you now think looting in Ferguson is "domestic terrorism". I don't agree. I also don't think that "bullying", "victim" or "hate crime" apply to Ferguson and never implied such (I've previously expressed my opinion of those words being generally misused, more than once).

But, I'm on call and in and out of Mock. So, I'm up for you reviewing "racial crime", "harassment", and "defendant" in the context of Ferguson and really curious about how "micromanagement" comes into play. You completely lost me on the micromanaging reference.

Sock it to me, Dr. M.

[HairOfTheDog]

Fortunately, it was pretty mellow in Ferguson for Thanksgiving and the day before. I saw pictures of business owners and community members cleaning up looted stores, painting signs of peace on boarded-up broken store windows, picking up the streets, delivering food to the National Guardsmen (their presence seemed to really help get things in check).

Luckily, no one was killed in any of the nationwide protests and hopefully the calm will endure.

Ferguson now...






There were more arrests at Ferguson protests in Oakland and Los Angeles than in Ferguson and St. Louis, I think. Same kinds of stuff -- resisting arrest, failure to disperse, firing a gun shot, arson, and burglary.

Actually, there were nearly as many arrests for the same crimes here in San Francisco and more arson after the Giants victory over Detroit in the 2012 World Series. Effin' embarrassing.

When there are huge crowds highly emotionally charged-up, for whatever reason (good or bad), there are bound to be some criminally minded assholes who get outta control and seize the opportunity to act like animals and disrupt the peace or celebration. In my experience.

[Blindgreed1]

You guys remember all the white folks that rioted when OJ was aquitted? Me neither.

[HairOfTheDog]

You guys remember all the white folks that rioted when OJ was aquitted? Me neither.

I don't remember that either.

But, I do remember post #20 where Cars posted the clever meme for that analogy.

[Blindgreed1]

You guys remember all the white folks that rioted when OJ was aquitted? Me neither.

I don't remember that either.

But, I do remember post #20 where Cars posted the clever meme for that analogy.

My son told me that yesterday. I thought he was being wity. Now I look like an ass. THANKS CASEY!

[username]

You guys remember all the white folks that rioted when OJ was aquitted? Me neither.

That was an over sight. We missed a damn good opportunity there.

We need to keep an eye out for the next one and torch all the StarBucks.

[HairOfTheDog]

My son told me that yesterday. I thought he was being wity. Now I look like an ass. THANKS CASEY!

Damn kids!!

I don't really understand the rationale for comparing the OJ verdict reaction to the reactions in the Zimmerman and Ferguson cases anyway.

OJ's case wasn't one where a majority of white people were united in the belief that the two white victims were murdered by a black man who racially profiled and killed them and then got away with it due to discrimination against Caucasians. But, I'm open if anyone wants to explain how they're comparable situations.

If the point in comparing the OJ verdict reaction to the Zimmerman/Ferguson reactions is to point out that black people feel more discriminated against than white people and therefore they're more frequently involved in civil unrest and protests which open the door to looting and rioting, no argument from me there. I think that's simply a fact.

[Blindgreed1]

My son told me that yesterday. I thought he was being wity. Now I look like an ass. THANKS CASEY!

Damn kids!!

I don't really understand the rationale for comparing the OJ verdict reaction to the reactions in the Zimmerman and Ferguson cases.

OJ's case wasn't one where a majority of white people were united in the belief that the two white victims were murdered by a black man who racially profiled and killed them and then got away with it due to discrimination against Caucasians. But, I'm open if anyone wants to explain how they're comparable situations.

If the point in comparing the OJ verdict reaction to the Zimmerman/Ferguson reactions is to point out that black people feel more discriminated against than white people and therefore they're more frequently involved in civil unrest and protests which open the door to looting and rioting, no argument from me there. I think that's simply a fact.

I guess the point is that protesting is fine (my personal opinion), but looting and destroying someone elses property over a court ruling does more to sterotype the black race than it does to create change. If the cop that shot this kid was black, would we be having this conversation at all? People are killed by cops every day. Why aren't people all over the country protesting, rioting, looting and burning for those people? I blame the media.

[HairOfTheDog]

I guess the point is that protesting is fine (my personal opinion), but looting and destroying someone elses property over a court ruling does more to sterotype the black race than it does to create change. If the cop that shot this kid was black, would we be having this conversation at all? People are killed by cops every day. Why aren't people all over the country protesting, rioting, looting and burning for those people? I blame the media.

If the officer who shot Michael Brown had been black, I don't think we'd be having this conversation -- I agree with you there, Gunnar.

I don't think we'd be having this conversation because there wouldn't be a (real or perceived) notion by a large portion of the black population (and plenty in the non-black population as well) that the killing of an unarmed teen was due to racial profiling and discrimination against blacks.

I disagree (with just about everyone here, it seems ) about the media being responsible for anything but covering the news in these cases. The media didn't create racial tension. The media is not to blame.

I definitely acknowledge that some outlets cover the news (whether it be in regards to race, guns, Ebola, politics...) in a manner designed to sensationalize and keep fears/emotions stoked, though.

[Blindgreed1]

I guess the point is that protesting is fine (my personal opinion), but looting and destroying someone elses property over a court ruling does more to sterotype the black race than it does to create change. If the cop that shot this kid was black, would we be having this conversation at all? People are killed by cops every day. Why aren't people all over the country protesting, rioting, looting and burning for those people? I blame the media.

If the officer who shot Michael Brown had been black, I don't think we'd be having this conversation -- I agree with you there, Gunnar.

I don't think we'd be having this conversation because there wouldn't be a (real or perceived) notion by a large portion of the black population (and plenty in the non-black population as well) that the killing of an unarmed teen was due to racial profiling and discrimination against blacks.

I disagree (with just about everyone here, it seems ) about the media being responsible for anything but covering the news in these cases. The media didn't create racial tension. The media is not to blame.

I definitely acknowledge that some outlets cover the news (whether it be in regards to race, guns, Ebola, politics...) in a manner designed to sensationalize and keep fears/emotions stoked, though.

That's where the blame lies IMO.

[HairOfTheDog]

^ I don't think the media is so powerful that they could create or eliminate racial tensions, discrimination, etc...

The media also devoted a good deal of coverage on messages to the public discouraging and condemning looting and rioting. That didn't stop it from happening, just like it didn't cause it to happen. IMO.

I respect your opinion and the opinion of others about the media being to blame for all kinds of societal problems. I don't see it the same way, but it's just my view. I see the media as sometimes contributing to fear and outrage (and positive emotions, depending on the topic of coverage), but not being responsible or to blame for how people think or act.

[Midwest Spy]

The problem stems from a lack of courageous black leaders coming out and speaking intelligently to the black community.

Again, it's been proven that this kid assaulted a cop INSIDE his squad, then ran, and according to which version you believe, was either mercilessly gunned down while he simply stood there or was shot as he was charging and ready to attack the officer.

If cops were slaughtering innocent blacks we'd have heard about it by now.

I have 2 black co-workers who are my age, educated AND work for a living. They concur that if someone assaults a cop in his squad all bets are off and they acknowledge that they'd be much more likely to believe the cops version of events at this point than the kids friend.

[Blindgreed1]

The problem stems from a lack of courageous black leaders coming out and speaking intelligently to the black community.

Again, it's been proven that this kid assaulted a cop INSIDE his squad, then ran, and according to which version you believe, was either mercilessly gunned down while he simply stood there or was shot as he was charging and ready to attack the officer.
If cops were slaughtering innocent blacks we'd have heard about it by now.

I have 2 black co-workers who are my age, educated AND work for a living. They concur that if someone assaults a cop in his squad all bets are off and they acknowledge that they'd be much more likely to believe the cops version of events at this point than the kids friend.

I believe the evidence proves it was the latter.

[Blindgreed1]

You guys remember all the white folks that rioted when OJ was aquitted? Me neither.

That was an over sight. We missed a damn good opportunity there.

We need to keep an eye out for the next one and torch all the StarBucks.

Here's another one. This kid was shot and killed by a "non-white" cop after Brown was killed. Are white people too lazy to riot, loot and burn?
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=31772096

[HairOfTheDog]

The problem stems from a lack of courageous black leaders coming out and speaking intelligently to the black community.

Again, it's been proven that this kid assaulted a cop INSIDE his squad, then ran, and according to which version you believe, was either mercilessly gunned down while he simply stood there or was shot as he was charging and ready to attack the officer.

If cops were slaughtering innocent blacks we'd have heard about it by now.

I have 2 black co-workers who are my age, educated AND work for a living. They concur that if someone assaults a cop in his squad all bets are off and they acknowledge that they'd be much more likely to believe the cops version of events at this point than the kids friend.

It's interesting, to me, how (collective) we have different perceptions about what is and isn't happening.

Over the last 18 months or so, I've been seeing and hearing a lot about the perception that cops are murdering innocent blacks and how groups of black advocates and citizens of all ethnicities are trying to confront and address what they consider a systematic problem.

This is a headline mainstream media piece I saw just two days ago: They're Murdering Our Kids and Getting Away with It: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/26...25776.html

The fact that your black friends from your peer group are inclined to believe the same source or version of events that you believe isn't surprising to me.

The fact that many white civil rights advocates and citizens against militarized police are less trusting of the police officer than are you and your peers (of any color) isn't surprising to me either.

How close or far removed we are from the types of environments and situations where these contested police killings are going down (along with many other factors) has a lot of influence on our beliefs and perceptions, IMO.

I've read some of the Grand Jury transcript -- I don't think much was proven; very much of the witness testimony and physical evidence was open to interpretation. But, IMO, it didn't contradict Wilson's versions of events and therefore there wasn't probable cause to charge him.

So, I personally understand the lack of indictment. But, I've spoken to a few people in my neck of the woods over the last few days who do not understand (one got up in my face a little, then cooled down and kissed me -- haha). They believe the Grand Jury should have indicted Darren Wilson and a trial jury should have heard the case and evidence.

I think that what we see and what we hear has a lot to do with what our eyes and ears are tuned into.

[Blindgreed1]

[username]

You guys remember all the white folks that rioted when OJ was aquitted? Me neither.

That was an over sight. We missed a damn good opportunity there.

We need to keep an eye out for the next one and torch all the StarBucks.

Here's another one. This kid was shot and killed by a "non-white" cop after Brown was killed. Are white people too lazy to riot, loot and burn?
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=31772096

Apathetic or just less inclined to act lawlessly. I hadn't even heard about that story.

As an aside, how about that 12 year old kid who was shot brandishing an airsoft gun? What fries my chops about THAT shooting is although the 911 caller told the dispatcher at least twice that it was "probably a fake gun", the dispatcher never even mentioned that to the officers she sent to the scene. What a monumental fuck up. I hope her ass is fired.

[HairOfTheDog]

As an aside, how about that 12 year old kid who was shot brandishing an airsoft gun? What fries my chops about THAT shooting is although the 911 caller told the dispatcher at least twice that it was "probably a fake gun", the dispatcher never even mentioned that to the officers she sent to the scene. What a monumental fuck up. I hope her ass is fired.

The 12-year-old was Tamir Rice from Cleveland. Sad and interesting case.

I moved some posts and started a dedicated thread for the shooting death of Tamir Rice here:
http://mockforums.net/showthread.php?tid=11616

[Carsman]

You guys remember all the white folks that rioted when OJ was aquitted? Me neither.

That was an over sight. We missed a damn good opportunity there.

We need to keep an eye out for the next one and torch all the StarBucks.

Here's another one. This kid was shot and killed by a "non-white" cop after Brown was killed. Are white people too lazy to riot, loot and burn?
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=31772096

Apathetic or just less inclined to act lawlessly. I hadn't even heard about that story.

As an aside, how about that 12 year old kid who was shot brandishing an airsoft gun? What fries my chops about THAT shooting is although the 911 caller told the dispatcher at least twice that it was "probably a fake gun", the dispatcher never even mentioned that to the officers she sent to the scene. What a monumental fuck up. I hope her ass is fired.

Neither did I, that's because the "media" didn't run with it and blow it up like they did with Brown's "robbery"/shooting! The "media" does rule/brainwash the sheeple masses, contrary to what HotD believes.

OJ got away with murder, it was a black man killing two white people, it wasn't a racial thing, and the white people didn't make it into one, like the blacks do. So as for the blacks to have an excuse to riot & loot, as the blacks "always" (take to the bank) do! The white people didn't riot & loot, because it's against the law. However, blacks don't have to adhere to the law, they are entitled to riot & loot, because their ansestors were slaves.