TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

[HairOfTheDog]

As an aside, how about that 12 year old kid who was shot brandishing an airsoft gun? What fries my chops about THAT shooting is although the 911 caller told the dispatcher at least twice that it was "probably a fake gun", the dispatcher never even mentioned that to the officers she sent to the scene. What a monumental fuck up. I hope her ass is fired.

I've been following that one too. So sad.

Here's the video of Tamir Rice, 12, being shot within seconds of Cleveland police arriving at the park.



It reminds of the case of 13-year-old Andy Lopez who was shot dead in Sonoma County because he was walking while carrying an airsoft gun.

All the community protests, all the eyewitnesses, 2 officers on the scene, 7 bullets into Lopez -- and still Officer Erick Gelhaus was not charged.

Some of these toys looks so much like the real thing, especially without an orange safety tip. And, kids get taken off guard and don't respond appropriately. I understand why these unfortunate confrontations occur. I don't understand cops shooting over and over when there are two or more officers on the scene, the suspect is down, and the weapon could be picked up by one of them so the situation could be assessed before continuing to unload on a fallen body.

[Midwest Spy]

While I don't believe the 12 year old 'deserved' to die, why is he walking along a sidewalk brandishing the weapon at civilians? WTF?

Talk about having a death wish.

And, yes, User is right, some of the details were left out from the 911 dispatch to police. However, 911 is supposed to get officers to the scene as quickly as possible.

And, what if the gun turns out to be real, but the officers have been told that 'maybe its a toy' and they hesitate and end up dead themselves?

Tough situation. Ultimately, the kid made the choice to walk around and flash a gun at people as they walked down the street.

Not smart.

[Duchess]

Wasn't he told to drop the weapon or raise his hands in the air, something like that? I only heard about this in passing.

[Blindgreed1]

You guys remember all the white folks that rioted when OJ was aquitted? Me neither.

That was an over sight. We missed a damn good opportunity there.

We need to keep an eye out for the next one and torch all the StarBucks.

Here's another one. This kid was shot and killed by a "non-white" cop after Brown was killed. Are white people too lazy to riot, loot and burn?
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=31772096

Apathetic or just less inclined to act lawlessly. I hadn't even heard about that story.

As an aside, how about that 12 year old kid who was shot brandishing an airsoft gun? What fries my chops about THAT shooting is although the 911 caller told the dispatcher at least twice that it was "probably a fake gun", the dispatcher never even mentioned that to the officers she sent to the scene. What a monumental fuck up. I hope her ass is fired.

It's protocol for 911 dispatchers to not give any opinions when dispatching officers for reasons MS pointed out. Only the facts.

[HairOfTheDog]

It's protocol for 911 dispatchers to not give any opinions when dispatching officers for reasons MS pointed out. Only the facts.

What the heck are you talking about, Gunnar?

The fact is that the caller told the dispatcher there was a guy in the park waving around what was probably a toy gun, but might be a real gun. The caller was uncertain as to which.

What protocol prohibits the dispatcher from arming the responding officers with all of the pertinent information conveyed by the caller?

[HairOfTheDog]

Wasn't he told to drop the weapon or raise his hands in the air, something like that? I only heard about this in passing.

That's what the Deputy Chief said in a press conference.



Snip:
The officers drove onto the grass with their windows down, and gave three commands to “show your hands,” Deputy Chief Tomba said. He wouldn’t elaborate on additional dialogue between the officers and the boy because of an ongoing investigation into the incident.

The 911 call, a transcript of which was released Monday, detailed the observations of a man who was sitting outside of the recreation center and described seeing “a guy in here with a pistol.” He continued, saying the person kept pulling the gun in and out of his pants. “It’s probably fake. But you know what? It’s scaring the shit out of people,” the caller said.

ETA: The 911 call (the caller says it's probably a fake several times and that the black male is probably a juvenile).


Full story: http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/cleveland-vid...tamir-rice

After the internal investigation, the case will go to a Grand Jury.

[Duchess]

No one likes to see children shot down but if it's true that the cop told him to show his hands and the kid didn't comply then I feel he brought this on himself.

[HairOfTheDog]

if it's true that the cop told him to show his hands and the kid didn't comply then I feel he brought this on himself.

I hear ya. But, it's not that cut and dry for me.

This is a good short video which includes the 911 dispatch call to responding officers, along with real time video of the shooting.



That rookie cop fired pretty effin' quickly on someone who was not reported to have fired a gun, had not pointed a gun at the officers, and was not in the vicinity of anyone else when the officers, with their doors open, pulled right up on him while reportedly telling him to put his hands up from inside the vehicle.

That's a lot going on in a very shot span of time. Had the officers known that Tamir was believed to be a juvenile who was in the park with what the 911 caller believed was probably a fake pistol, they might have taken more than 2 seconds to assess the situation before shooting to kill. The officers thought Tamir was about 20. He was 12.

We'll see where the investigation goes. This kid comes from a low income family and his parents have some domestic violence charges on their records; I sure hope that isn't used to try to smear the 12-year-old. That shit gets real old. Whether it turns out the 911 dispatcher and the officers followed policy and are cleared or not, this was a kid playing with a toy gun in the park. He didn't hurt anybody.

[username]

It's protocol for 911 dispatchers to not give any opinions when dispatching officers for reasons MS pointed out. Only the facts.

What the heck are you talking about, Gunnar?

The fact is that the caller told the dispatcher there was a guy in the park waving around what was probably a toy gun, but might be a real gun. The caller was uncertain as to which.

What protocol prohibits the dispatcher from arming the responding officers with all of the pertinent information conveyed by the caller?

@Gunnar...The facts were that the 911 caller said it was probably fake. I don't think the dispatcher inquired as to whether or not it had an orange tip. It didn't but are you saying that information wouldn't be relevant?

HotD is right. It might have slowed the severity of the cop's reaction just enough.

[HairOfTheDog]

Reading up on the case. Some timeline background...

- Saturday, 22 Nov. 2014 at 3:30 p.m. -- Tamir Rice was shot at Cuddell Commons Park and Youth Center in Cleveland, Ohio.

- The officers who shot Tamir did not give him CPR after the shooting. It wasn't until an FBI agent who happened to be in the area showed up 4 minutes after the shooting that CPR was given.

- Tamir was shot twice in the Torso. He was rushed to the hospital and he died there several hours later.

- On Sunday, 23 Nov. 2014, the family hired attorney Timothy Kucharski who will help the family launch its own investigation.

- On Monday, 24 Nov 2014, Cleveland PD held a press conference. Also on Monday, hacktivists "Anonymous" took down the city of Cleveland's web site. The group posted a video saying, "Police of the United States you will learn in due time once anonymous has shut down your sites that we will not stand for your ignorant untrained rookie cops." The web site was restored on Wednesday.

- On Tuesday, 25 Nov. 2014, the family asked for the Cleveland PD to release all tapes to the public and asked for the community to remain calm and peaceful while the investigation is underway. PD agreed to family's request. Protests began.

- On Wednesday, 26 Nov. 2014, the officer who fired the shot was identified as 26-year old Timothy Loehmann, a rookie cop who started in March. Frank Garmback was the other responding officer -- he's been on the force for 7 years. Both were placed on administrative leave immediately after the shooting, pending investigation.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf...me.html#15

[blueberryhill]

Too much deadly force going on and I would hate to be in the shoes of the LE; however, isn't there another way to protect themselves and take down the "perp" without killing them. I recently watched show on Animal Planet wherein, Vet had to shoot a tranquilizer dart into a caribou to treat a disease of some kind. Surely, a dart into the leg would be preferable to being dead. If they can aim a gun, then they can aim a harmless dart into arm or leg.. Toy companies need to quit making guns that look real. They need to be made in bright colors. BB guns, air rifles, etc can harm others so children (my grandson was 14 when he got air rifle for Christmas) should use these with supervision of adults. I don't condone the rookie who shot this boy, but where are the parents and why was boy alone at a park with a gun which looked real. IMO, he was too young to own this gun. Making toy guns in colors isn't so smart, I guess, because all the crooks would start painting their guns with bright colors, i.e., a hot pink here, a sea blue there, etc..

[username]

He was shot within a few seconds of the police cruiser pulling up (on top of the grass within a few feet of him I might add). They didn't even give him 10-15 feet to try and figure out what the hell was going on. Plus he was alone in the gazebo at that time. And I do find it telling that the dispatcher is more concerned about whether he's black or white and clearly reports THAT without also mentioning the witness who reported it states a couple of times that the gun "is probably fake".

That's fucked up.

[Duchess]

I don't think they are receiving sufficient training and add to that I think they are fearful as well. That alone should keep them off the streets but it doesn't. It's said that when they fear for their safety they should shoot to kill and many do. There are other jurisdictions where cops shoot to wound in order to take control of the situation but they are few and far between.

It hardly seems like there was a nano second between the time LE showed up and shots were fired, that isn't even enough time to access the situation. I question their level of fear given they drove right up on him.

[Carsman]

I don't think they are receiving sufficient training and add to that I think they are fearful as well. That alone should keep them off the streets but it doesn't. It's said that when they fear for their safety they should shoot to kill and many do. There are other jurisdictions where cops shoot to wound in order to take control of the situation but they are few and far between.

It hardly seems like there was a nano second between the time LE showed up and shots were fired, that isn't even enough time to access the situation. I question their level of fear given they drove right up on him.

Aeons ago, it was the '"exception" rather then the rule for a perp to ever consider "hitting a cop", more or less then considering "shooting" a cop! Today, not so much! Yes, they are fearful, as cops are forced to be due to the brutality of many perps today.

Today, the mind-set of many perps (many of them black) will shoot a cop without a giving it a second thought! Knowing this fact, cops when approaching a perp, are cautious, as they should be, and many times they only have a split second to make life and death decisions. Cops do not have an easy job, always being under the "media's" watchful camera, for the "media" just waiting to pounce on any error they may make, and putting it out to the world, puts cops under undue pressure.
Cops being human, just want to go home after work, same as any other workers want.

[thekid65]

Those that think the officer acted to hastily have obviously not spent enough time in the crime ridden areas of larger cities. 12 year old wannabe gang-bangers DO carry the real fucking thing these days. If I'm an officer, rolling up on that shit, you can damn well be sure I'm gonna be safe as opposed to sorry.

HoTD..IMO, you see a kid, holding a weapon you believe to be real, I dont care if it takes 20 shots...motherfucker isnt getting a chance to use it. These guys have to make split second decisions, and they are exposed to the most heinous bullshit on a daily basis. It's easy to sit back and judge...walk a mile in their moccasins..then come back and talk.

And yes, it's a shame that a 12 year old died. And I'd like to believe that no officer wants to maliciously injure/kill such a young kid.

Duchess..it seems like a nanosecond, because it's time lapse. Granted, it may have been a short time between the point to where the officers pulled up, and shots were fired..but the video makes it look much shorter than what it was.

[Midwest Spy]

The only cop I've known was a jerk, but that being said, I personally want as many of them on the streets as possible to take care of the criminals that live among us.

As a (mostly) law-abiding citizen I don't have a whole lot to fear as to negative encounters with police.

In analyzing these two shootings I think there are two distinct differences.

In Ferguson, there's a cop on his own who says to two individuals "quit walking down the middle of the street. move to the sidewalk." he gets a "fuck you", is attacked while still in his squad, his gun goes off and he then pursues them.

He is without a partner or a backup. At this point he is scared (as Duchess has mentioned) and will react accordingly. I still believe wholeheartedly that Brown was charging him and that's why he's dead.

With the 12 year old you have a pair of cops responding to a 911 call. They were not scared IMO, but were going to neutralize the threat as quickly as possible.

I agree that it's very sad that a 12 year old had to lose his life in this manner.

Brown was part of the criminal element and attacked a cop. If this was white on white, with the exact same circumstances we'd have never heard of this case.

[HairOfTheDog]

HoTD..IMO, you see a kid, holding a weapon you believe to be real, I dont care if it takes 20 shots...motherfucker isnt getting a chance to use it. These guys have to make split second decisions, and they are exposed to the most heinous bullshit on a daily basis. It's easy to sit back and judge...walk a mile in their moccasins..then come back and talk.

I've spent a fair share of my life living smack dab in urban areas with high crime, Kid.

I have no reason to believe that these officers shot Tamir Rice because he was black. I have no reason to believe that these officers were looking to kill someone when they responded to the call, much less a kid. I have every reason to believe that these cops believed that Tamir was an adult; I heard the officer say so directly as Tamir was dying in the grass.

I have reason to believe that these cops were operating with less information about what they were potentially approaching than what could have been available to them. I heard the 911 complaint call, and I heard what the dispatcher relayed to the responding officers. I believe that the information which was not passed on to the responders may have influenced their perceptions and could have resulted in a different outcome.

I have reason to question why an assessment wasn't made before fatal shots were fired in this case -- I've watched the video and it happened very quickly -- in under 2 seconds. I understand that you believe it was an appropriate approach and an appropriate shooting response. However, the Deputy Chief of Police acknowledges that questions pertaining to the appropriateness of the manner in which the officers approached and their quickness in firing are valid questions that need to be investigated. I agree with the Chief over TheKid65.

The cops were not being fired upon and they were aware that the person they were approaching had not fired a gun at all. They yelled instructions (reportedly) out the door of a running car and shot the person (who turned out to be a kid with a toy gun) within 2 seconds of reported non-compliance.

The cops may have been justified, or it may be that the rookie was unqualified to respond to such a call. The 911 dispatcher may have been justified in leaving out details when communicating with responding officers, or she may have been in violation of policy. I'm interested to hear what the investigation reveals. Until then, I respect that you don't think it's appropriate to question police or 911 under such circumstances. I disagree and think it's dangerous not to ask questions in such circumstances, even though I'm well aware of the dangers that LEOs face in areas like Cleveland and I appreciate what they do. Different views, that's all.

[Duchess]

always being under the "media's" watchful camera, for the "media" just waiting to pounce on any error they may make, and putting it out to the world

...and that's exactly how it should be. As you have stated, they are just like everyone else and like so many in today's world they deserve to be scrutinized because they can't be trusted. Of course that doesn't apply to all of them but too bad, they all need to be watched.

[Maggot]

Maybe a rioting mob could break into the police station, grab the cop and put him on a table in the center of town and go at him like Mel Gibson portrayed William Wallace in "Braveheart" that would be a real story that could be broadcast at 6pm with a gleam in the eyes of the reporters. All Sharpton could say at the end "justice is done" and Jesse Jackson could pray. The President could say "If I had a son he would have 20 virgins now" and FOX news could gnash their teeth until their lower jaws became salivating mounds of mush.

Meanwhile:
As the snow flies
On a cold and gray Chicago mornin'
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghetto

[HairOfTheDog]

Duchess..it seems like a nanosecond, because it's time lapse. Granted, it may have been a short time between the point to where the officers pulled up, and shots were fired..but the video makes it look much shorter than what it was.

That's incorrect, Kid.

Loehmann, 26, shot Rice between 1.5 and 2 seconds after pulling up in a patrol car, according to Deputy Chief Ed Tomba. The vehicle was driven by veteran Cleveland police officer Frank Garmback, 46.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cleveland-of...atrol-car/

Some of us are asking questions about the shooting death of a kid based on what the 911 call reveals, what the dispatch to first responders reveals, what the video of the shooting reveals, and what Chief Tomba revealed in the press conference. Those are tangibles; facts.

The questions are legitimate and the answers are being pursued via police investigation. In the meantime, questions and discussion and opinions stated as such are all encouraged in the crime forum.