IS THIS BULLSHIT OR APPROPRIATE?

[username]

Ha ha!!! Well said, Donovan. I agree. It wasn't appropriate in a high school setting and it is like hitting a tack with a sledgehammer. Over the top choice.

[sally]

I am of the opinion that forcing one's overt sexuality on a captive audience is in its own way as bad as the forced oppression of sexuality. Same reason I don't care much for Mapplethorpe's photographic "piss jesus" stuff. Too obvious. T

HotD mentioned she was interested in the assignment/topic Olio was instructing when the poem was read in class. What you said could be one of the topics.

The poem itself is still utter garbage and too "in your face" sexually explicit for high school. I could see some of the more conservative holy roller parents looking at that and thinking wtf are you teaching my kid at this school, how to be a homo.

[HairOfTheDog]

^ Yeah, I did a little research and that might be the case.

Olio was teaching an elective AP course -- it's college level and tied into the University of Connecticut. The focus is post-modern literature, so gotta think the non-conservative and sometimes provocative works of Vonnegut, Pynchon, Kerouac, Burroughs, Gaddis, Foster, Ginsberg...would be explored. Examining language identity invention in relation to race, sexuality, gender and such is part of the class syllabus.

I could see the poem fitting the context well and being read without causing a shitstorm, IF the course were being taught to college students sitting in a classroom at University of CT. Big difference between college and high school expectations and environments, even with the most advanced high school seniors. If Olio lost sight of that, he really screwed up.

I'm just speculating here.

[Donovan]

I have seen some pretty provocative things in a classroom and been responsible for a couple of sketchy moments. For example, in a job preparation segment at an alternative school I spent time in, I secured permission to screen "Clerks" which is pretty racy in parts. But it also had solid redeeming qualities, was pertinent to the subject matter and was also a good object lesson for what it meant to Kevin Smith since the course was an
English elective. However, I still had to send written notes home explaining the movie was adult themes and content, excuse any student who didn't wish to attend, and excise a couple of the more bawdy bits like the blowjob argument.

[sally]

Both my older kid's favorite movie in the 5^th-8^th grade was Jay and Silent Bob. I think it depends on the maturity of the kid what you decide to censor them from. I thought they were mature enough to watch it. I also walked down the red light district with them when they were 12 and 16. A life experience and not a big deal to me.

[sally]

You can't expect that from every parent, however. Some parents would totally disregard that Ginsburg was an influential poet in his time and how he impacted others(no pun intended) and only see that he was a gay jew fuck.

So if you're a teacher adamant about doing Ginsburg you would at least need to send home permission slips. I think most of the class would opt out.

[HairOfTheDog]

I have seen some pretty provocative things in a classroom and been responsible for a couple of sketchy moments. For example, in a job preparation segment at an alternative school I spent time in, I secured permission to screen "Clerks" which is pretty racy in parts. But it also had solid redeeming qualities, was pertinent to the subject matter and was also a good object lesson for what it meant to Kevin Smith since the course was an English elective. However, I still had to send written notes home explaining the movie was adult themes and content, excuse any student who didn't wish to attend, and excise a couple of the more bawdy bits like the blowjob argument.

While parental concern never factored into the equation for me with college students, I can imagine it's ever-looming for high school teachers. It's good that you weren't over-sheltering and predictable (boring), while also understanding that you should respect parental concerns in advance.

Based on nothing but a very detail-void story + Olio's 2013 class syllabus + a really good impression of Olio's ability to inspire his students after viewing one of his teaching videos, I think Olio's failure to respect both sides of that coin may be what got him in hot water in the OP case.

Do you have any regrettable in-class teaching memories, Donovan? I do.

[Donovan]

Do you have any regrettable in-class teaching memories, Donovan? I do.

Ohhh, yeah. My classroom history is somewhat limited since my career took a different path, but I did have a pretty disastrous seventh grade stint that started badly and ended worse. Left a horrible taste in my mouth for teaching in general, since a lot of my issues stemmed from the staff. It was the worst example of how insular, clique-y and immature adult teachers can be.

[HairOfTheDog]

I only taught in Japan (great professional teachers and awesome administration) and some graduate classes on the side here in the US years ago (not as a career).

I never got to know the other teachers here because I was contracted -- drove to the campus, taught the courses, drove off. But, we've got two high school teachers in the family now. Their assessment of the professional academic environment is the same as yours; so, they don't mingle with their colleagues much. They always have funny stories about their students and classroom adventures though (and love having the summers off).

[Mohammed]

That's not a poem, that's the lyrics to the next Love Parade anthem!

If they haven't done that already. I could actually here that running constantly in an elevator of a building full of "Live Male Nude Dancers" in Sydney. They would so love that shit!

[HairOfTheDog]

That's not a poem, that's the lyrics to the next Love Parade anthem!

If they haven't done that already. I could actually here that running constantly in an elevator of a building full of "Live Male Nude Dancers" in Sydney. They would so love that shit!

Seriously, the man wrote a poem (it is a poem!, albeit unconventional) back in 1968 that could probably still raise a few penciled-in eyebrows at a love parade in San Francisco, Amsterdam or Sydney today -- 47 years later. It's difficult to elicit a strong reaction from most unsheltered Americans, Dutch, Australians, and Hungarian-Krauts in this day and age, much less in a community like Mock. But, there it is...

I think your elevator idea could be a winner Mo, but the Australian Nudist Union of Stair-elevatorists (ANUS) would have to put Mr. Ginsberg's "not obscene" (according to the US Supreme Court's ruling on "Howl", and I agree) words to music for the piece to really succeed, I imagine.

What do you think?: 'Please Master' in rap, heavy metal, pop, revival disco, techno, R&B? I say give it to Ian Anderson -- I seriously think that man could make it work.

[username]

I don't see it as a poem either. It's a graphic sex ode and I'd be equally bothered by it if the subject matter were heterosexual as opposed to gay sex. Again, sledgehammer hitting thumb tack. I'd personally prefer all the poems out there dealing with sexuality that aren't quite so in your face. I don't believe in censorship either so I'm not saying it should be banned reading but I do think that it's not appropriate in a high school class and even in a college course, the students might benefit from a lead up to a poem like that. I think it requires some explanation as to why it might be worth discussing.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yeah, it's a poem, user. Sledgehammer or not. Inappropriate for high-school students and still offensive to many mature adults or not.

It's a poem titled "Please Master" by Allen Ginsberg written in 1968.

That's just a literary fact.

[aussiefriend]

It's not appropriate in that setting. The thing is, there are strict rules surrounding curriculum and what is allowed in public education I would assume. It's not appropriate, could maybe explored at a University Level, but not high school. The kiddies are just not ready for it yet. Also, some of those kids would come from very conservative homes, and this type of language maybe very confronting and counter to what their families and culture believes/represent.

Ginsberg, represents something to this day that many parents may not consent to or wish their children to be influenced by. My answer is, the poem is probably a little to mature for the younger readers, and the teacher needs to get approval and permission from whoever before trailblazing in this area. That's what I think.

[Duchess]

I had to ask myself if I would feel differently had that been a woman saying it to a man.

[aussiefriend]

Well, then it would be slutty wouldn't it?

[Duchess]

I don't know about that. If said to him privately it might be a turn on. Men don't seem to mind her acting slutty privately as long as she's a lady in public.

[aussiefriend]

For the record, I like Ginsberg. I watched a documentary on his life, fascinating life.

[Maggot]

I think all the progressiveness in Mock is getting to me. I think it should be read to grade school children to observe their reactions. Then read it to old people in a nursing home to see their reactions, then make a collage of all the faces and put it in the Smithsonian in Washington and watch all the reactions from the people there. Then we could have a true understanding of human nature and the future.
Its all about love people!!! LOVE!

[HairOfTheDog]

Nobody in here, so far, thinks the poem is appropriate for high school or that it was wrong for Olio to get suspended.

A couple of us could see how it might be appropriate and worthy of analysis in a college setting, if it fit a particular topic of study well and was introduced properly.

What are you viewing as progressive here, Mags? The views in this thread are more conservative than progressive, in my opinion.