THE REBEL FLAG

[HairOfTheDog]

Tease. A proper rant is always a fun read.

Anyway, you did get me curious about the perception and/or reality of white privilege in Australia.

This is a good short piece on the subject; interesting to see something subjective quantified: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arch...ed/386102/

[crash]

It is a good piece. I wasn't trying to deny the existence of white privilege. I know it exists. I was having a semi-rant at some of the activists that are pushing the barrow for it over here. I know they have a cause, I know what it is. I understand their message and I hope it does raise awareness and bring about change. What I don't understand is when they push their message to the point that they are trying to victimise their intended audience in a similar way that they feel the people they are protesting for have been.

[Duchess]

questions being asked about streets named for Confederate officers.

This is just too much. Give people an inch & they want a mile.

I don't have a negative view of that flag. I've never looked at it and seen it as a symbol of white supremacy or pro-slavery or any of the other negative things that are being thrown out there. I've only ever seen it as a symbol of the South.

[Duchess]

So I've been asking people around here if they view the confederate flag as a symbol of white supremacy and not a single person has said yes. Granted, I've only asked white people because frankly, that's all I have contact with, it's not because I don't like black people it's just that none are in my social circle. One of the people I asked commented on Walmart's decision to pull from its shelves anything with a rebel flag on it and he wanted to know if they were going to stop selling white sheets too.

[F.U.]

questions being asked about streets named for Confederate officers.

This is just too much. Give people an inch & they want a mile.

Ahhh the ol slippery slope syndrome. Once the Ok we will give you this one thing, snowball, starts rolling it picks up steam and you lose all sorts of shit.

[HairOfTheDog]

questions being asked about streets named for Confederate officers.

This is just too much. Give people an inch & they want a mile.

I don't have a negative view of that flag. I've never looked at it and seen it as a symbol of white supremacy or pro-slavery or any of the other negative things that are being thrown out there. I've only ever seen it as a symbol of the South.

That’s what lawmakers in some of the Southern states are now trying to change; the perception that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of the South today. All of those things that you (and the people you asked) don’t see it as are exactly what it was born of.

I don’t mean that in a negative way at all, just as a matter of fact. I think there are probably a fair amount of non-racist people who regard that flag as nothing more than a symbol of “rebellion” or “Southern pride" and who don’t associate it much past a cool bumper sticker on the Dukes of Hazzard car or the jacket of a kick-ass Lynyrd Skynyrd album.

But, the KKK and the skinheads didn’t randomly pick the Confederate flag as their representative symbol. They picked it because its original/historical message fits their backwards views to a tee. They, and people educated in the history/heritage of that flag, know that it was a symbol of rebellion against one thing; ending the enslavement of black people and giving them the rights of other humans in this country. People in 11 states were willing to kill and die rather than surrender their self-proclaimed “God-given” and Constitutionally-alluded right to own black people as property. That's what the Confederate flag symbolized when it was created -- any non-racial symbolism it holds now is out of historical context and/or a result of marketing and revisionist history.

Imagine how it feels to be a history-educated black person in South Carolina seeing that flying over the state capitol after some modern-day white supremist decides to walk into a black church and kill nine people for being black? Hell, Imagine how it feels to be a history-educated non-racist white person in South Carolina under the same circumstances.

I imagine it might feel to a lot of them like “fuck, 150 years later and that pro-slavery flag is still flying high as a symbol of the state, and black people are still getting killed in churches for being black.” I think that’s why we’re actually seeing a rare bi-partisan and racially-diverse leadership concurrence that proudly flying the Confederate Flag on governmental grounds should be a thing of the past.

Taking down that symbol won’t end racism or race-hate, but taking it down would be symbolic of the fact that the state of South Carolina no longer considers those types of views and actions to be a source of pride. Nobody’s rights woud be infringed by replacing that capitol flag with the US Flag or the South Carolina state flag.

Any time there's a change in policy, there will be those pushing past reasonable boundaries. The "slippery slope" argument for resisting change always gets brought up as a result. Personally, I think the Confederate flag will probably stop being flown over governmental grounds, Confederacy-related street names will remain in-tact, and private citizens will continue to be able to display and regard the Confederate flag as they see fit.

I've considered and do understand all of the arguments that I've heard/read in favor of leaving the Confederate flag up at the South Carolina state capitol.

[Blindgreed1]

questions being asked about streets named for Confederate officers.

This is just too much. Give people an inch & they want a mile.

I don't have a negative view of that flag. I've never looked at it and seen it as a symbol of white supremacy or pro-slavery or any of the other negative things that are being thrown out there. I've only ever seen it as a symbol of the South.

That’s what lawmakers in some of the Southern states are now trying to change; the perception that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of the South today. All of those things that you (and the people you asked) don’t see it as are exactly what it was born of.

I don’t mean that in a negative way at all, just as a matter of fact. I think there are probably a fair amount of non-racist people who regard that flag as nothing more than a symbol of “rebellion” or “Southern pride" and who don’t associate it much past a cool bumper sticker on the Dukes of Hazzard car or the jacket of a kick-ass Lynyrd Skynyrd album.

But, the KKK and the skinheads didn’t randomly pick the Confederate flag as their representative symbol. They picked it because its original/historical message fits their backwards views to a tee. They, and people educated in the history/heritage of that flag, know that it was a symbol of rebellion against one thing; ending the enslavement of black people and giving them the rights of other humans in this country. People in 11 states were willing to kill and die rather than surrender their self-proclaimed “God-given” and Constitutionally-alluded right to own black people as property. That's what the Confederate flag symbolized when it was created -- any non-racial symbolism it holds now is out of historical context and/or a result of marketing and revisionist history.

Imagine how it feels to be a history-educated black person in South Carolina seeing that flying over the state capitol after some modern-day white supremist decides to walk into a black church and kill nine people for being black? Hell, Imagine how it feels to be a history-educated non-racist white person in South Carolina under the same circumstances.

I imagine it might feel to a lot of them like “fuck, 150 years later and that pro-slavery flag is still flying high as a symbol of the state, and black people are still getting killed in churches for being black.” I think that’s why we’re actually seeing a rare bi-partisan and racially-diverse leadership concurrence that proudly flying the Confederate Flag on governmental grounds should be a thing of the past.

Taking down that symbol won’t end racism or race-hate, but taking it down would be symbolic of the fact that the state of South Carolina no longer considers those types of views and actions to be a source of pride. Nobody’s rights woud be infringed by replacing that capitol flag with the US Flag or the South Carolina state flag.

Any time there's a change in policy, there will be those pushing past reasonable boundaries. The "slippery slope" argument for resisting change always gets brought up as a result. Personally, I think the Confederate flag will probably stop being flown over governmental grounds, Confederacy-related street names will remain in-tact, and private citizens will continue to be able to display and regard the Confederate flag as they see fit.

I've considered and do understand all of the arguments that I've heard/read in favor of leaving the Confederate flag up at the South Carolina state capitol.

So we change based on ideals by the ignorant few. Geat policy.

[HairOfTheDog]

Did you read the full post Gunnar?

Does it say that the change is being proposed based on the ideals of the ignorant few, the white supremists?

Does it say that the change is being proposed to piss off those who are ignorant in regards to the flag's history and what it symbolizes in its original context?

It doesn't say that. It says that I agree with the politicians calling for the policy change because I don't think South Carolina is a state that's still fighting to subjugate blacks or rebelling against the abolition of slavery. So, I can understand why it's time to stop flying on government grounds a flag that, to many, symbolizes and glorifies that long lost fight.

Can't please everyone and I understand that you don't think it would be a good change in policy, for your own reasons.

I think the policy change may require a ²⁄₃ majority vote in state congress. In any case, it's the decision of the state's elected leaders whether it should stay or go.

[Jimbone]

So what do people think? Can the Confederate flag fly at Civil War memorials on federal or state owned land, or should it not? Is it just not welcome at state capitol building grounds that have memorials, or is it going to be all memorials?

Just curious what people think.

[BlueTiki]

If the flag is banned, it will now, exclusively be associated as a sign of racism.

Those who display it will be labeled as racists . . . without question or due process.

As the little bastard also sported a Gold's Gym tank top, is this now considered a symbol of black hatred, too?

Or the fact he used a Glock handgun . . . should law enforcement now choose a more racially neutral weapon manufacturer?

As to the bipartisan support for this ban, I view it as the (as EVERYONE knows) racial Republicans seizing an opportunity to trick the blacks as appearing more sympathetic and garner votes.

I now understand the choice of color for the flag of surrender and cowardice.

I don't understand why this isn't being decided by the people of SC.

This seems like another knee-jerk effort for legislators to give the illusion of doing something without accomplishing anything at all.

I do hope these flag banning folks will also pass a referendum prohibiting "alleged racial" banners made of cotton.

That should give another bit of comfort for those who slaved, too.

[Duchess]

My issue with them taking the flag down is that they are doing this right now because a killer was holding it in pix that have been released. If no one had seen those pictures I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think the only question currently under legislative consideration in South Carolina is whether or not the Confederate flag should continue to be flown on the grounds of the State Capitol, in any capacity, because the ideals behind its creation conflict with the ideals of South Carolina today.

But, I understand your point Jimbone. Personally, I don't think the Confederate flag should be removed from designated Civil War memorials on private, state or federal lands which don't also host activities that represent the state's present and (stated) future ideals.

If the memorial in question wasn't on State Capitol grounds (along with several other memorials, including the Revolutionary War Memorial and the African American Memorial), I don't think there would be a movement to remove the Confederate flag from it. But it is, so there's a trade-off, and it's a controversial one. This debate and call for removal didn't start with last week's mass murder at the church, not by a long shot. But, the mass murder certainly escalated the debate and put the issue on the front burner in a big way.

Anyway, attempting to erase history or diminish memory of those who lost their lives in war isn't the goal, and I don't think flying the US Flag or the South Carolina flag instead of the Confederate Flag is disrespectful to veterans or their surviving family members. However, I understand that some of those family members may well feel differently, regardless of their current political and social beliefs, and I can respect that.

[Jimbone]

Bans don't work anyway... Germany banned Nazi flags and symbolism and the neo-Nazi groups are still around and still hate.

Taylor Swift says it best, 'Haters gonna' hate, hate, hate, hate, hate'. It's what they do.

If they were really crafty hate groups would co-op My Little Pony or Hello Kitty. Oh no, too late!!!

[HairOfTheDog]

I haven't seen any governmental plans to ban the Confederate Flag.

I've only seen governmental discussion about discontinuing to fly it on State Capitol grounds.

It was made clear by SC Governor Haley that private citizens can continue to do as they see fit with it.

I see that Walmart has decided to discontinue selling it. That's their business decision to make.

[BlueTiki]

It is a ban . . . banning it from flying at the State Capital.

The governor and mayor deemed the Stars and Bars as racist.

I don't believe I have heard any elected person who claims it as a racial symbol extol any other meaning for this flag . . . such as a symbol for state sovereignty over federal rule of law.

[HairOfTheDog]

If they were really crafty hate groups would co-op My Little Pony or Hello Kitty. Oh no, too late!!!

Are you really suggesting that the Confederate Flag was not symbolic of the belief that whites are superior to blacks, and that it was chosen randomly by groups who hate blacks, Jimbone?

I think you know your history better than that, but I can't tell by your last post.

[Jimbone]

No, I was actually just poking fun at Nazi hate groups.

ETA: that's why I used the pictures I did.

[HairOfTheDog]

It is a ban . . . banning it from flying at the State Capital.

I got the impression that you were suggesting the Confederate flag was being banned from society, which it's not.

I don't see the elected state legislature choosing to discontinue flying it as them "banning" themselves from doing so. But, that's just my view.

I can see how it could be considered "banned" in that limited context.

[Jimbone]

Just noticed I have a Confederate flag on my truck. Go figure.

[Duchess]

Hahaha!