RIP HARAMBE :(

[Blindgreed1]

I call it laziness on the parents. They put their kids in front of a television or movie or game and walk away going about their business. I believe that's what we are seeing today as far as crime, drug abuse and students being such pussies is the beginning of the results of this crap and it will only get worse.

I read about a 17 year old girl who was recently diagnosed with PTSD because she got the "5 F treatment" from a boy in high school. They were BF and GF for 2 weeks. PTSD? Really?

[blueberryhill]

I had a conversation about Harambe this morning, I didn't raise the subject of him another woman did and both the women I was with raised a point I hadn't heard being made yet and it was about the little boy. They both said had they told their child no, their kid wouldn't have dared be so disobedient as to slip through the fence or whatever the hell it was. That's a good point and I believe it's true. As a little kid I wouldn't have deliberately done something I was specifically told not to because I knew there would be consequences.

He went over the fence very quickly as I understand it. One minute he was there, the next he was swimming with the gorilla. The kid was obviously a handful, but as a parent, she should have been aware of his whereabouts at all times BECAUSE she knows he's a handful and they are in a public place. My son had a leash similar to what Sally described and I didn't give a fuck what other people thought about it. I think his was a monkey backpack with the leash grommet. He liked it and I always knew where he was. My daughter always stayed stuck to my leg in public. I have to ask though... Why wasn't there and outcry like this when Clapton's kid fell out of a window to his death? Is it because this woman can't play a guitar or is it because we have social media now?

Most likely it was because Clapton's child did not fall on an animal and kill it....and the social media has made us all busybodies getting into everyone's business. Sometimes, we just need to mind our own business....

In the case of this beautiful gorilla, perhaps all Zoos will improve their barriers, because as long as humans inhabit this planet, parents will continue to be irresponsible, etc......Signs which say "Danger, do not climb," or "Keep Out," etc. are meaningless in today's World. Just maybe this incident will help this from happening again due to a better barrier, not because all parents become more responsible....

[Blindgreed1]

I had a conversation about Harambe this morning, I didn't raise the subject of him another woman did and both the women I was with raised a point I hadn't heard being made yet and it was about the little boy. They both said had they told their child no, their kid wouldn't have dared be so disobedient as to slip through the fence or whatever the hell it was. That's a good point and I believe it's true. As a little kid I wouldn't have deliberately done something I was specifically told not to because I knew there would be consequences.

He went over the fence very quickly as I understand it. One minute he was there, the next he was swimming with the gorilla. The kid was obviously a handful, but as a parent, she should have been aware of his whereabouts at all times BECAUSE she knows he's a handful and they are in a public place. My son had a leash similar to what Sally described and I didn't give a fuck what other people thought about it. I think his was a monkey backpack with the leash grommet. He liked it and I always knew where he was. My daughter always stayed stuck to my leg in public. I have to ask though... Why wasn't there and outcry like this when Clapton's kid fell out of a window to his death? Is it because this woman can't play a guitar or is it because we have social media now?

Most likely it was because Clapton's child did not fall on an animal and kill it....and the social media has made us all busybodies getting into everyone's business. Sometimes, we just need to mind our own business....

In the case of this beautiful gorilla, perhaps all Zoos will improve their barriers, because as long as humans inhabit this planet, parents will continue to be irresponsible, etc......Signs which say "Danger, do not climb," or "Keep Out," etc. are meaningless in today's World. Just maybe this incident will help this from happening again due to a better barrier, not because all parents become more responsible....

I think that's more likely to be closer to the truth. Yes there was an outcry because the gorilla was killed, but what has spun off is far bigger than that with the police now opening up an investigation into the parents degree of liability. Of course... Clapton's kid died too where this kid did not but it certainly shows the affect of social media and how it can effect our daily lives.

[sally]

The doctor who killed that lion in an illegal hunt was pretty disturbing too and I don't think he even got as much backlash as this woman is getting.

[Duchess]

Muthafucka killed Cecil.

[HairOfTheDog]

Today the 911 call from Isiah's mom was released.

She was one of six people to call 911 once they saw Harambe approach the boy.



ETA: She sounds frantic, but still collected and focused on keeping her son calm. Also, the family confirmed today that they have no plans to sue the zoo -- good to hear.

[blueberryhill]

The doctor who killed that lion in an illegal hunt was pretty disturbing too and I don't think he even got as much backlash as this woman is getting.

I read a blurb on FB from someone who knows the mom in this case. She says she is a responsible person, she was talking on the phone at the time, but had her little boy's hand in her pocket....and he was gone in a second.......i will never forget years ago, when I took my 3 year old grandson to Deadwood (no, it wasn't a gambling town, then). We went to the old fashioned soda fountain and ordered a sandwich and a drink. I turned away for barely a minute to pay the bill, and he had disappeared....I will never forget the feeling I got in the pit of my stomach....this was like 1986, before child abductions were of epidemic proportions. There were throngs of people by now and several minutes passed and I saw him and the look of sheer panic on his face....I can't explain the panic that both of us felt....

You all probably remember over 20 years ago, when John Walsh's wife took their son shopping at Sears and she was paying for an item and she had just looked at him playing nearby, then she looked a minute later and he was gone. His headless body was found...and to this day, it was never determined who killed him for sure although the evidence pointed to Oits O'Toole (I think that was the name).....Walsh is still very bitter about the police work which was done (happened in FL) at the time.

Guess my point is that it only takes seconds, minutes to lose sight of a child, and trust me, I am not excusing anyone for anything (that is my disclaimer), but I have experienced how fast it can happen.......People today are always on their phones, hang up and supervise the little ones...

[username]

So if God saved that little boy he killed Harambe? Or if the little boy had been ripped apart as soon as Harambe got a hold of him, that must have been one very bad boy if God sicked Harambe on him that way. I'm just trying to make sense of where God fits in this picture.

I was happy to hear that they're directing donations to the zoo. I don't think there should be zoos as we've known them. There should be breeding sites and sanctuary sites with as much open space as possible but a zoo (except for the breeding/research work it does) is just a pet store with bigger cages and animals as far as I'm concerned. I don't know if they're treated well but those places where you can just drive through in your car are better than zoos. In the sanctuary's, perhaps they can have tours in a car type vehicle (I'm thinking unbreakable glass on wheels) but the whole caged, cramped quarters conditions with animals pacing out of boredom shoudl go bye bye.

[Duchess]

I think God is in your heart. He's not in a cloud above directing events. He doesn't save some people and not others. I think that's a ridiculous notion.

[Duchess]

I was just watching the news and they had Harambe on there again. It occurred to me that he has Kim Kardashian's ass.

[Maggot]

When a pile of illegal ivory is found they burn it. I've always wondered why its not sold and the proceeds go to some wildlife fund or something.

[HairOfTheDog]

I was happy to hear that they're directing donations to the zoo. I don't think there should be zoos as we've known them. There should be breeding sites and sanctuary sites with as much open space as possible but a zoo (except for the breeding/research work it does) is just a pet store with bigger cages and animals as far as I'm concerned. I don't know if they're treated well but those places where you can just drive through in your car are better than zoos. In the sanctuary's, perhaps they can have tours in a car type vehicle (I'm thinking unbreakable glass on wheels) but the whole caged, cramped quarters conditions with animals pacing out of boredom shoudl go bye bye.

I think Donovan, LoveChild, you and sally all make good points. Some of them are conflicting points, but they're valid points and reflective of the conflicting views among and between animal rights advocates and activists, scientists, animal lovers, and the general public. I've been reading up a little on the issue and stances since the Harambe story broke.

Many prominent animal rights activists/advocates and organizations disagree with any captivity of non-domesticated species in any setting (except sanctuaries, in some cases). That includes zoos staffed by highly-qualified and compassionate experts committed to species preservation.

Those such animal rights activists (like PETA) believe that wild animals, as sentient beings, should never be placed or bred in captivity because the right of the individual animal to live naturally does not justify captivity for the sake of preserving the species. Preserving and protecting the natural environments/habitats for each individual animal is the only appropriate human action, in their view (based on what I've read).

So, even though the observation and research undertaken at great zoos is sometimes effective in getting environmental/habitat protection acts pushed through, it involves the captivity of animals and is thus not justified or moral in their eyes.

On the other hand, a good portion of scientists, zoologists, animal lovers, and others don't share that 'all or nothing' view, for a variety of reasons. And, there are some species that have in fact been saved from extinction and now exist in the wild due to the research and breeding undertaken at major zoos. For other endangered species, however, zoo conservationists have only managed to increase the species population in captive environments (as is the case with lowland gorillas) -- the hard-core animal rights advocates don't consider that a success.

Of course, there are still plenty of people who think that nothing should be done to protect the environment and animals from the immediate wills/desires/needs of humans, while others would rather see some human lives and economies put at risk than to see wild animals become endangered.

In my opinion, animal rights advocates and activists have (even if indirectly) improved the conditions for captive animals overall. Over the last twenty years or so especially, they've helped increase the public's understanding of all species of animals, helped get laws/regulations about captive conditions and care implemented in the U.S., and generally increased people's respect for non-domesticated animals. There are still some scumbag animal exhibitors and practices at zoos, but that appears to be much less common than it was when we were growing up.

Whether or not captivity-bred animals who experience proves cannot be released into their species' natural habitat should continue to be bred is more controversial than I previously realized. I'm interested in how others here think/feel about it.

[Blindgreed1]

The doctor who killed that lion in an illegal hunt was pretty disturbing too and I don't think he even got as much backlash as this woman is getting.

I read a blurb on FB from someone who knows the mom in this case. She says she is a responsible person, she was talking on the phone at the time, but had her little boy's hand in her pocket....and he was gone in a second.......i will never forget years ago, when I took my 3 year old grandson to Deadwood (no, it wasn't a gambling town, then). We went to the old fashioned soda fountain and ordered a sandwich and a drink. I turned away for barely a minute to pay the bill, and he had disappeared....I will never forget the feeling I got in the pit of my stomach....this was like 1986, before child abductions were of epidemic proportions. There were throngs of people by now and several minutes passed and I saw him and the look of sheer panic on his face....I can't explain the panic that both of us felt....

You all probably remember over 20 years ago, when John Walsh's wife took their son shopping at Sears and she was paying for an item and she had just looked at him playing nearby, then she looked a minute later and he was gone. His headless body was found...and to this day, it was never determined who killed him for sure although the evidence pointed to Oits O'Toole (I think that was the name).....Walsh is still very bitter about the police work which was done (happened in FL) at the time.

Guess my point is that it only takes seconds, minutes to lose sight of a child, and trust me, I am not excusing anyone for anything (that is my disclaimer), but I have experienced how fast it can happen.......People today are always on their phones, hang up and supervise the little ones...

That's the same story a witness told the day it happened. Wouldn't it be great if it turns out that she wasn't to blame for all this and all of the self righteous assholes that passed judgement on her felt like shit? Never happen because something else will pop up on their FB feed to judge and they will forget about it, but how cool would that be?

[HairOfTheDog]

That's the same story a witness told the day it happened. Wouldn't it be great if it turns out that she wasn't to blame for all this and all of the self righteous assholes that passed judgement on her felt like shit? Never happen because something else will pop up on their FB feed to judge and they will forget about it, but how cool would that be?

I too disagree with the people who are calling for the mother's head, and/or suggesting that the parents should have been shot instead of Harambe, and/or failing to acknowledge that shit happens to children of even good responsible parents, etc..

But, I don't believe there's any way the mother can or should be absolved of all blame. If it were my child, I would absolutely blame myself for my son having gotten the opportunity to do what he said he wanted to do by sneaking into the gorilla exhibit. I'd hope my nightmare experience would help other parents be more diligent at zoos.

I'd also expect the zoo to take immediate responsibility for enhancing its barriers. And, I'd feel like absolute shit about the death of Harambe, but be forever grateful for my son surviving relatively unscathed.

[Blindgreed1]

That's the same story a witness told the day it happened. Wouldn't it be great if it turns out that she wasn't to blame for all this and all of the self righteous assholes that passed judgement on her felt like shit? Never happen because something else will pop up on their FB feed to judge and they will forget about it, but how cool would that be?

I too disagree with the people who are calling for the mother's head, and/or suggesting that the parents should have been shot instead of Harambe, and/or failing to acknowledge that shit happens to children of even good responsible parents, etc..

But, I don't believe there's any way the mother can or should be absolved of all blame. If it were my child, I would absolutely blame myself for my son having gotten the opportunity to do what he said he wanted to do by sneaking into the gorilla exhibit. I'd hope my nightmare experience would help other parents be more diligent at zoos.

I'd also expect the zoo to take immediate responsibility for enhancing its barriers. And, I'd feel like absolute shit about the death of Harambe, but be forever grateful for my son surviving relatively unscathed.

As I said up-thread, She should have put a leash on that kid, BUT, if it wasn't this kid, it would have been another. Obviously a 15 foot fence isn't enough for today's children. This kind of stuff never happened when I was growing up.

[HairOfTheDog]

As I said up-thread, She should have put a leash on that kid, BUT, if it wasn't this kid, it would have been another. Obviously a 15 foot fence isn't enough for today's children. This kind of stuff never happened when I was growing up.

It's still not clear to me about the barrier. I've read that the boy squeezed through the barrier. I've read that he squeezed under the barrier. And, I've read that he got over the barrier.

I kinda got the impression that there was more than one barrier breached. I'd like to see a graphic or photo to get a clearer understanding.

I remember a couple of incidents of visitors getting to animals at zoos and being hurt or killed when we were growing up, but it happened rarely. I don't know if it's happening any more or less per visitor today though.

[Blindgreed1]

As I said up-thread, She should have put a leash on that kid, BUT, if it wasn't this kid, it would have been another. Obviously a 15 foot fence isn't enough for today's children. This kind of stuff never happened when I was growing up.

It's still not clear to me about the barrier. I've read that the boy squeezed through the barrier. I've read that he squeezed under the barrier. And, I've read that he got over the barrier.

I kinda got the impression that there was more than one barrier breached. I'd like to see a graphic or photo to get a clearer understanding.

I remember a couple of incidents of visitors getting to animals at zoos and being hurt or killed when we were growing up, but it happened rarely. I don't know if it's happening any more or less per visitor today though.

I can't remember ever hearing about anyone getting hurt or killed in a zoo when I was growing up. Maybe it has to do with where I grew up? I remember the Nam kill count every night with Walter Cronkite, but never anything about zoo maulings or killings.

[HairOfTheDog]

I can't remember ever hearing about anyone getting hurt or killed in a zoo when I was growing up. Maybe it has to do with where I grew up? I remember the Nam kill count every night with Walter Cronkite, but never anything about zoo maulings or killings.

I remember seeing a few stories on tv and reading about zoo workers and handlers/trainers getting killed, usually by big cats. I think the qualifications and safety precautions for zoo staff have increased significantly since then, fortunately.

One zoo killing I remember discussing in a class happened in New York back in the 80s. IIRC, some kids climbed over the fence at the zoo to get into the Polar Bear's moat. One of them was mauled to death (the other two got away, I think). The bears were shot dead by police. Even then, people were debating whether the bears should have been killed and authorities pointed out that no enclosures are 'fool' proof. I'll see if I can find something on that story.

[HairOfTheDog]

Here's a piece about the Polar Bear mauling incident I remembered.

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/05/20/nyregi...k-zoo.html

The boy who was killed was 11-years-old. I'd forgotten he and his buddies had broken into the zoo before they infiltrated the Polar Bear exhibit.

[Blindgreed1]

I can't remember ever hearing about anyone getting hurt or killed in a zoo when I was growing up. Maybe it has to do with where I grew up? I remember the Nam kill count every night with Walter Cronkite, but never anything about zoo maulings or killings.

I remember seeing a few stories on tv and reading about zoo workers and handlers/trainers getting killed, usually by big cats. I think the qualifications and safety precautions for zoo staff have increased significantly since then, fortunately.

One zoo killing I remember discussing in a class happened in New York back in the 80s. IIRC, some kids climbed over the fence at the zoo to get into the Polar Bear's moat. One of them was mauled to death (the other two got away, I think). The bears were shot dead by police. Even then, people were debating whether the bears should have been killed and authorities pointed out that no enclosures are 'fool' proof. I'll see if I can find something on that story.

Kids meaning teenagers or little kids like this one and the one mauled by the painted dogs? I'm talking about little kids here. Not drunken idiot teenagers.