What should be done about the caravan of people coming to the U.S.

[HairOfTheDog]

What Trump is doing is not a case of cracking down on 'illegal immigration'.

Traveling from Central America through Mexico to apply for asylum at an authorized U.S. border port is not illegal.

If it were, Trump and company could deploy police officers to the border, arrest all of the migrants immediately for illegal entry (misdemeanor), and either deport them immediately or prosecute them.

Trump's rhetoric and threats aren't aimed exclusively at the minority of the caravan migrants who try to cross at unauthorized border points, which would be 'illegal immigration'.

His rhetoric and threats are aimed at all of the migrants, most of whom are simultaneously exercising their legal and human rights under U.S. and International law. So, Trump is primarily targeting 'legal immigration'.

[HairOfTheDog]

Trump's justifications for the increasing histrionics, based on his public statements:

(a) some of the migrants are criminals -- some undoubtedly are, but historically few -- if they have a criminal record, they'll be deported after the background check,
(b) they're lying about the dangers they face back home -- though government officials who operate within Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador describe a massive humanitarian crisis of corruption, poverty, and gang harassment of citizens,
( c) they're really sponsored invaders who want to take over America -- baseless conspiracy theory bullshit, and
(d) they're likely to get violent and commit crimes at the border in the process of seeking asylum, which hasn't been a major or unmanageable issue in the past (and a good number of these migrants are women and children).

Other Presidents have deployed some forces to the border when large numbers of migrants were approaching, for crowd control primarily. I don't have a problem with that -- I want it to be safe for everyone.

What's disgusting to me is demonizing and threatening asylum-seeking migrants in order to gin up fear in the core voter base for perceived/potential political gain.

[Love Child]

What Trump is doing is not a case of cracking down on 'illegal immigration'.

Traveling from Central America through Mexico to apply for asylum at an authorized U.S. border port is not illegal.  

If it were, Trump and company could deploy police officers to the border, arrest all of the migrants immediately for illegal entry (misdemeanor), and either deport them immediately or prosecute them.  

Trump's rhetoric and threats aren't aimed exclusively at the minority of the caravan migrants who try to cross at unauthorized border points, which would be 'illegal immigration'.

His rhetoric and threats are aimed at all of the migrants, most of whom are simultaneously exercising their legal and human rights under U.S. and International law.  So, Trump is primarily targeting 'legal immigration'.

I got that. But somebody else was pretending like they didn't understand your words.

[HairOfTheDog]

I can't imagine being in the military right now under this president.

The Pentagon's just-released assessment can be found here:  https://www.newsweek.com/trump-administr...ps-1196855

Key points:

1. The military experts expect the caravan to dwindle to around 1,400 (20%) before it arrives at the U.S. border.
2. They do not expect terrorist or violent threat from the migrants (low risk).
3. They are concerned about armed American non-governmental militia groups showing up at the border.

The official document is included in the article, about half way down the page.

[HairOfTheDog]

I got that. But somebody else was pretending like they didn't understand your words.

Oh, I know you get it Love Child.

I was just jumping off your post to re-iterate for those few who keep claiming that Trump's only targeting 'illegal immigration'.

I'm worried that Trump is creating a situation that will lead to violence and very much hope that doesn't happen.

[Fry Guy]

What Trump is doing is not a case of cracking down on 'illegal immigration'.

Traveling from Central America through Mexico to apply for asylum at an authorized U.S. border port is not illegal.

If it were, Trump and company could deploy police officers to the border, arrest all of the migrants immediately for illegal entry (misdemeanor), and either deport them immediately or prosecute them.

Trump's rhetoric and threats aren't aimed exclusively at the minority of the caravan migrants who try to cross at unauthorized border points, which would be 'illegal immigration'.

His rhetoric and threats are aimed at all of the migrants, most of whom are simultaneously exercising their legal and human rights under U.S. and International law. So, Trump is primarily targeting 'legal immigration'.

Of course this isn't true either is it?
Falls over on a couple of accounts. Firstly, the potential asylum seeker is obliged to apply for asylum at the first safe country the arrive at and at the designated ports of entry. They also need to be applying under specific grounds and these reasons need to be truthful.

Did they apply for asylum at Mexico?
Did they apply at the designated Mexican ports of entry?
Are they going apply under specific grounds?
Will it be truthful?

If you say that if some of these answers are "No" then they can be arrested right?

So the police go to arrest Mr and Mrs Guatemala for not applying in Mexico and they say they are Mexican and joined the caravan once it crossed the border, making good USA the first safe country arrive at to seek refuge. As to whether they were fleeing gang violence and lived in fear (applicable reason) or the real reason (they saw this as a chance of great comparable wages) is needing now to be investigated.

So do the police arrest them for having done the wrong tbing? Multiple this situation 5000 times.

[Duchess]

I'm worried that Trump is creating a situation that will lead to violence and very much hope that doesn't happen.

trump imagines himself a tough guy, he's not, he's the baby in chief. A third of the country would love to see some violence at the border, they'll think that's trump showing people who is boss. The only thing the military can do down there is put up some tents and do some cooking. It will cost millions for his nonexistent crisis, but what's he care, it's not like it's his tax dollars, he doesn't pay taxes, he's a free loader. The president of the United States is a goddamn moron and I love that he's an international laughingstock.

[Duchess]

Trump is now telling troops to shoot if they are throwing rocks at the military.

If someone gets shot down there, I don't think it will be an immigrant, it will probably be one of those crackpot hick militiamen who don't know how to act. I really don't think our military will break the law. There has been some analysis done and our defense officials do not believe there are terrorists or other national security threats within the migrant caravan.

[Carsman]

Trump is now telling troops to shoot if they are throwing rocks at the military.

If someone gets shot down there, I don't think it will be an immigrant, it will probably be one of those crackpot hick militiamen who don't know how to act. I really don't think our military will break the law. There has been some analysis done and our defense officials do not believe there are terrorists or other national security threats within the migrant caravan.

I didn't know our defense officials were clairvoyant.

[Duchess]

I didn't know our defense officials were clairvoyant.

Why do you think they sit in DC and make their determinations?

[HairOfTheDog]

I trust our defense officials to assess national security threats.  That's their job and they're damn good at it.  Their assessments are not based on clairvoyance.  Their assessments are based on experience, trends and intelligence.

And, I trust that our Justice Department and Law Enforcement leaders fully understand the laws of our country.  Both Jeff Sessions (Attorney General of the United States),  and Kirstjen Nielsen (Director of Homeland Security) have authority over immigration policing agencies, Border Patrol and ICE.

Sessions and Nielsen told the nation just a couple months back that caravan migrants who cross the U.S. border illegally (outside of authorized border ports) will be criminally prosecuted when they introduced the  'zero tolerance' policy.  

They both advised migrants to instead do it the right way, the legal way, by applying for asylum at authorized ports of entry (though there was a long queue and some of the ports were closed).  Migrants who apply for asylum legally are detained for processing/screening, not sent to criminal facilities for prosecution.

[HairOfTheDog]

Migrants who present themselves at authorized border ports and request asylum are following the U.S. and international laws. They are not "illegal immigrants". However, based on his comments yesterday, President Trump is looking to reduce asylum in the U.S. by further narrowing the 'credible fear' criteria.

And, while migrants who enter the United States without authorization outside of authorized border ports are "illegal immigrants", they are still entitled to apply for asylum under international law. However, based on his comments yesterday, President Trump is looking to move away from adhering to that international law.

Those are the facts / laws of U.S. immigration and asylum as they stand today, whether one likes them or not.

[Maggot]

At any rate they will not be here for the election so they'll have to mail them in.

[HairOfTheDog]

That's one of the most nonsensical and debunked of the baseless conspiracy theories Mags.

There's still no evidence that illegal immigrants vote in state and federal elections, despite tons of election audits/ research/investigation.

The idea that illegal immigrants would risk being prosecuted, spend years behind bars, and then be deported in order to cast a vote is still illogical and still doesn't bear out.

There have only been a couple of cases throughout the decades and, though the immigrants appeared to be ignorant of the voter laws, they suffered the legal consequences.

Anyway, we've had this discussion dozens of times before, so I don't expect you'll care anymore about the reality now than you did then. But, there it is.

[Maggot]

Gullible is not in the dictionary its busy replying to maggots joke.

[Duchess]

I trust our defense officials to assess national security threats.  That's their job and they're damn good at it.  Their assessments are not based on clairvoyance.  Their assessments are based on experience, trends and intelligence.

How dare you use logic & facts to disillusion Cars and all who think like him.  

[HairOfTheDog]

You've argued the "illegal aliens are voting illegally by the droves!" case seriously many many times Maggot.

It's good to see you're no longer so gullible and acknowledge that it's a joke.

I do believe you're 'woke' on the issue!!!

[Maggot]

It takes me 2 cups to be woke sometimes 3.

[Rootilda]

A leaked Pentagon document says the number one threat at the border are vigilantes that'll try stealing gear from the military. That's American vigilantes.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-administr...ps-1196855

[HairOfTheDog]

Trump is now telling troops to shoot if they are throwing rocks at the military.

If someone gets shot down there, I don't think it will be an immigrant, it will probably be one of those crackpot hick militiamen who don't know how to act. I really don't think our military will break the law. There has been some analysis done and our defense officials do not believe there are terrorists or other national security threats within the migrant caravan.

I hope none of the unregulated militiamen shoots at migrants.  With all of the incendiary rhetoric coming from the White House, I think that's a real risk.

The military is worried about the militiamen for other reasons as well.  According to the military docs, they pretend to be aiding border patrol but often steal the equipment of the National Guard.

According to military planning docs, there is concern that the high number of border patrol agents needed to effectively deal with a large group of migrants will limit the border patrol's ability to focus on drug trafficking and other organized criminal activity they pursue on a daily basis.

Violent right-wing and violent left-wing American protesters showing up at the border is another cited concern.

And, I believe that there is legitimate concern that the forced entry the migrants undertook at the Guatemala/Mexico border could be a sign that some of the migrants are more desperate/aggressive than in the past, especially if they're confronted with conflicting passions on the U.S. side of the border.

Anyway, Mattis, when pressed, has tried to make this deployment of at least 5,200 active duty forces seem like business as usual.

“We are there in support of the secretary of homeland security, who needs additional military assistance. We do this following storms, we do this in support of the Department of Homeland Security. This is a different aspect of it, but that’s what we are doing,” Mattis said Wednesday.  https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-...ents-show/