Youth and Alcohol

[pspence]

Disease or not, the nice thing about alcoholics is there is a cure for their "disease". Don't drink, right. They can get help, they can change many of them do. Some don't.
There are many other diseases that have no "cure".
And last time I checked there is also not a cure for being an asshole. ; )

Most of my posts regarding this topic are flawed because I was fuckin' around with Kid...

...but since you're taking me seriously I'll give an honest response. I think alcoholism is a disease, there comes a point in it that those who are alcoholics are drinking to feel "normal". It's an insidious disease that affects almost everyone associated with the person who has it, both personally & professionally. It wields a considerable amount of power. It can destroy lifelong friendships, marriages and reduce a career to rubble.

I think those who realize their drinking has become out of control & take steps to overcome it deserve kudos & support.

^^^^^^^^.

[pspence]

[quote='Duchess' pid='276903' dateline='1344685479']
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An alcoholic will steal your money, the druggie will steal it, then help you look for it.

I wished i could take credit for it but a a mocker used this awhile back...

Drunk drivers run through red lights. A stoner will sit there as long as it takes until the stop sign turns green.

[Riotgear]

Alcohol is not the cause of alcoholism.

[pspence]

Alcohol is not the cause of alcoholism.

please elaborate ol' buddy

[Riotgear]

Alcohol is not the cause of alcoholism.

please elaborate ol' buddy

How about this - If alcohol was the cause of alcoholism wouldn't everyone who drinks be an alcoholic?

[pspence]

Alcohol is not the cause of alcoholism.

please elaborate ol' buddy

How about this - If alcohol was the cause of alcoholism wouldn't everyone who drinks be an alcoholic?

I know you are yanking our chain and that you are certainly aware that it is physiological - everyone's chemical reactions are different...when I eat strawberries...i break out in hives. Husband could live off of them.

[Riotgear]

Alcohol is not the cause of alcoholism.

please elaborate ol' buddy

How about this - If alcohol was the cause of alcoholism wouldn't everyone who drinks be an alcoholic?

I know you are yanking our chain and that you are certainly aware that it is physiological - everyone's chemical reactions are different...when I eat strawberries...i break out in hives. Husband could live off of them.

Right. So strawberries are the cause of hives.

[cladking]

Since he was about 15 my old my oldest son has been able to drink as much as he wants at home supllied by me. Wouldn't you know it took the mystery and shine right off it.

Now (at 18) he rarely drinks and doesn't seem particularly interested in doing so.

Familiarity breeds contempt. Or at the very least bored disinterest. That and simple cost/benefit analysis are the foundation of my parenting effort.

God I'm fucking brillant.

A friend had a baby that loved alcohol and especially beer. He'd usually give it a taste or three. One time we got it ever so slightly tipsy and pretty much quit. Now it's grown up and drinks very responsibly and quite seldomly. I gave my sister a cigarette when she was five and she never got the habit. Myself and all my other siblings did. And finally we've all quit.

I suspect we shelter kids too much about most things. Some things like death can be hard on them if too early but most other things can teach them what to avoid. Kids deserve answers to questions. If the question is "can I snort some coke" then parents and caregivers need to be a little more responsible and explain that even a single usage of some things can be addicting and that computing the proper dosage for a child extremely dangerous. Scoring the drug can be exceedingly dangerous for any would-be supplier.

I've seen people who give pot to their toddlers but I beat a quick retreat when I see such things.

Now, getting a kitten stoned is fun.

[cladking]

If only I hadn't smoked those Marlboros I wouldn't have this nasty heroin habit.

TRIVIA:
Heroin is the only narcotic that is instantly addicting. Meth and other drugs require some use- not much, but some continued use- to become physically addictive.
Not Heroin. The first time you use it you are addicted.

I do believe coke is the same for some people.

I had a doctor who wanted me addicted to meth for a medical issue. Even though it's supposed to be nearly as addictive as heroin, it took months to get only half addicted. Heroin is supposed to be "fun" and methadone is much less so.

[Riotgear]

Yeah, I to draw the line at giving weed to children. It seems like they don't appreciate it like I think they should.

[cladking]

would i have been liable? yes. but thankfully it didn't come to that. at least i knew where they all were! and i had spoken to their parents about it.

If more people had this attitude and the government stayed out of peoples' lives the world would be a much saner and safer place.

[cladking]

Not being obtuse at all. You're statement about not viewing alcohol as a drug shows your complete lack of education on this subject. Fuck, even when I was drinking I knew that simple fact. Being sober hasnt changed my POV on that at all. It is a mind/mood altering substance..the classic definition of a drug, is it not? Whether it's legal or not does not change the definition.

When you were challenged as to whether you'd be OK with providing herb at a party (after you said you had no problem with booze being provided), you seemed to backpedal a bit, and avoided the question.

No, I was not being obtuse, just trying to get you to think about what you were typing. But I understand now, as you made it quite clear when you stated you didnt think alcohol was a drug. Your POV makes sense to me now, albeit I disagree.

There's no doubt that alcohol is nasty and it ruins a large number of lives but we're trying to figure out ways to stop it from ruining the lives of loved ones. Some people could drink every day for a month and not get addicted and other people simply do. There is no way to predict but it appears that responsible drinking among the young will reduce alcoholism. Abstinence might be the best answer for everyone but you can't stop a kid from drinking if he wants to. God willing you might stop his first drink from killing him.

[cladking]

The brightest person I know is an alcoholic. He drank too much during law school. How he passed, with honors, is still a mystery. With that said, he knows and I know he's one ounce away from throwing it all away.
He's been sober for four years yet nurses daily the possibly all could be lost. Not his wife, nor his family can prevent him from taking a drink and destroying his life.

Only he has the power to do so- talk about total control of ones destiny!
I'm going to have him read this discussion and then seek his opinion as this topic has always fascinated me and I find myself vacillating on what to label alcoholism.

Alcoholism is probably a spectrum of diseases. Some people just get flat out addicted to it and others don't. Most of those who don't probably could get addicted but just don't drink enough or with enough frequency for it to happen.

Once you get addicted, you are addicted for life. You have to consciously and physically not drink.

I've long suspected that if you don't have the gene that allows you to be an alcoholic and you don't drink to cure a hangover and you don't drink when you're depressed and you don't drink more than three straight days you can abuse alcohol. The gene that makes you susceptible also makes you slightly alergic to alcohol and I believe I have this gene. I have a lot of Irish ancestry so it might be pure blind luck that all my drinking didn't lead to addiction.

Alcohol is dangerous. And I don't remember a lot of movie plots.

[cladking]

Alcohol is not the cause of alcoholism.

please elaborate ol' buddy

How about this - If alcohol was the cause of alcoholism wouldn't everyone who drinks be an alcoholic?

Yes. Alcoholism is a disease but the only way to tell if you have it is to drink all the time. If you have it you won't be able to quit.

I'm safe.

[cladking]

Yeah, I to draw the line at giving weed to children. It seems like they don't appreciate it like I think they should.

These were mere toddlers. One was about 2 ¹⁄₂ and the other 3 1/2. Watching them wheeze and slam their high chairs with their fists just ain't right. They obviously had a lot of experience.

[Riotgear]

Alcohol is just a vehicle for the manifestation of preexisting behavioral problems. If alcohol is absent something else will neatly take it's place and bobs your uncle.

Or am I the only one who's ever been to an AA/NA meeting watching folks pound red bull and smoke cigarettes like it's going out of style?

IMO It's irresponsible and dangerous, not to mention ineffectual to blame the substance for the behavior.

[cladking]

This is finally a subject I know something about.

Out of all my friends and family only one became addicted. He controls it as well as it can be controlled but, of course, it runs his life.

I had another friend on the periphery of my life who was killed in an accident at age 20 due to drinking.

Another childhood friend died in his early 50's and we suspect it was cirrhosis.

I don't believe any others are the direct result of drinking though a good friind's niece was paralyzed in an alcohol related traffic accident. She wasn't driving.

I've been very lucky and I now know it's just luck and no more.

[cladking]

Alcohol is just a vehicle for the manifestation of preexisting behavioral problems. If alcohol is absent something else will neatly take it's place and bobs your uncle.

Or am I the only one who's ever been to an AA/NA meeting watching folks pound red bull and smoke cigarettes like it's going out of style?

IMO It's irresponsible and dangerous, not to mention ineffectual to blame the substance for the behavior.

I don't disagree but I believe there's a bigger picture here. You're porobably right that many of the people who kill themselves with drink probably would kill themselves with something else but with most other things people have control until they're actually dead. You can stop pot, risky behaviour, or any number of non-addictive things right up to the end. You can stop heroin and never use again. If you do you can stop again.

Alcohol is different for many people. Once they become addicted there is nothing to stop it. They must abstain or they're right back where they started. Not everyone is like this but if you've got much Irish, native American, or German blood it is a little more likely. I'd guess it's probably close to one third of people who are susceptible to it. If you're one of them and you drink too much for too long you are a life long addict and the odds are high you'll die from it.

[QueenBee]

I grew up surrounded by alcoholism, and people who could just not handle booze. I remember my mom giving me the occasional sip of her "girly" drinks. But beyond that, I was never really one to even want to drink much. Though, my dad owned a small restaurant and bar, so I was around it a lot. I remember him making me what I now know is a Shirley Temple, and telling me it was a Sloe Gin Fizz. Probably not his best idea, he learned, when we were all out to eat, and I ordered a Sloe Gin Fizz..not even kn owing it was anything other than what my dad gave me.
I would not provide drinks to kids. Does not mean they will not get it somewhere else, but won't be from me.

[Riotgear]

Alcohol is just a vehicle for the manifestation of preexisting behavioral problems. If alcohol is absent something else will neatly take it's place and bobs your uncle.

Or am I the only one who's ever been to an AA/NA meeting watching folks pound red bull and smoke cigarettes like it's going out of style?

IMO It's irresponsible and dangerous, not to mention ineffectual to blame the substance for the behavior.

I don't disagree but I believe there's a bigger picture here. You're porobably right that many of the people who kill themselves with drink probably would kill themselves with something else but with most other things people have control until they're actually dead. You can stop pot, risky behaviour, or any number of non-addictive things right up to the end. You can stop heroin and never use again. If you do you can stop again.

Alcohol is different for many people. Once they become addicted there is nothing to stop it. They must abstain or they're right back where they started. Not everyone is like this but if you've got much Irish, native American, or German blood it is a little more likely. I'd guess it's probably close to one third of people who are susceptible to it. If you're one of them and you drink too much for too long you are a life long addict and the odds are high you'll die from it.

I think we're on the same page here. I was condensing for the sake of brevity and argument.

I do feel like there often so much emphasisis placed on the substance that the problematic behavior that alcohol magnifies or produces is overlooked or misunderstood.

Additionally, I disagree with 12 step philosophy. Among other things, it replaces a less lethal addictive behavior with another while not addressing the root cause of the behavior. Is the addict better off? Sure. For the moment. However, so-called 'healthy' alternative addictive behaviors leave the addict prone to the same sort of patterns that got them in trouble in the first place.

That ain't good medicine.