(03-26-2012, 06:45 PM)Teacher Wrote: But in my heart this is what I believe. I know there are many non-believers on this site, and I feel badly about that. Leaving God out of the equation is ruining our youth, our communities, our world (imo). No, I am not a religious fanatic - just a believer who raised her children to have the same values and beliefs that I do. So far I have been truly blessed with the results.

Fuck off.

There are plenty of supposed believers in any religion that are rotten to the core. A belief in God doesn't make parents or kids any better. I'm quite capable of teaching my kids values and morals without shoving some mystical creature down their throats.

Dumb bitch.

(03-27-2012, 06:26 AM)pspence Wrote: i remember once when i was growing up, there was a newspaper article about some kid in our town who was murdered. my mother said under her breath that if she had to choose, she would rather be the mother of the victim than of the perpetrator ...

That goes to the heart of the premise of this thread. I agree with your mother.

(03-27-2012, 05:40 PM)Kip Wrote:

(03-27-2012, 06:26 AM)pspence Wrote: i remember once when i was growing up, there was a newspaper article about some kid in our town who was murdered. my mother said under her breath that if she had to choose, she would rather be the mother of the victim than of the perpetrator ...

That goes to the heart of the premise of this thread. I agree with your mother.

Not me. It would be harder to lose my innocent child, forever, due to senseless violence than it would be to have my child alive and ostracized for bad deeds. Sounds selfish to wish your own child dead rather than to face up and live with his bad deeds, to me. Everyone's different. Interesting differences in views in this thread.

Believe me, I don't want my children to die "before their times." I could live with my child being ostracized. "Bad deeds" seems a nice way to describe a horrible crime. I would find it extremely hard to live with knowing my child was evil. If my child cold-bloodedly killed someone, I think he would essentially be dead to me.

I think of the murder of Travis Lane in Kalamzoo. He was killed in a horrific manner by an ex high school classmate. No reason other than the perp stole his car and the money in his bank account. The perp's parents - good people were devastated that their son had done this. They sat with the victim's family during the trial. When their son was found guilty, they moved out of state. So you have Travis Lane's parents who will mourn their bright, talented, loving son until they die. And you have the perp's parents who will mourn the loss of the son they lovingly raised, and wonder what went so wrong. I wouldn't want to be in either of their places, but if I HAD to choose, I'd want the honorable son rather than the evil/sociopathic/whatever one.

"Bad" or "evil" deeds. Doesn't matter what you call them. Senseless crime against others = literally, a bad deed; not minimizing.

The OP isn't only talking about the crime of murder, but other crimes as well.

What if your son molested children? Children who would be forever negatively affected and lose their normalcy by such a terrible violation. Would you rather be the mother of the child or the mother of the perp? I imagine the answer depends alot on who the parent is as a person, which is complex itself. Every viewpoint is valid and I don't think there are right or wrong answers, it's personal.

(03-27-2012, 05:08 PM)username Wrote:

(03-26-2012, 06:45 PM)Teacher Wrote: But in my heart this is what I believe. I know there are many non-believers on this site, and I feel badly about that. Leaving God out of the equation is ruining our youth, our communities, our world (imo). No, I am not a religious fanatic - just a believer who raised her children to have the same values and beliefs that I do. So far I have been truly blessed with the results.

Fuck off.

There are plenty of supposed believers in any religion that are rotten to the core. A belief in God doesn't make parents or kids any better. I'm quite capable of teaching my kids values and morals without shoving some mystical creature down their throats.

Dumb bitch.

User,

I'm so sorry you feel that way. I sincerely hope that your capabilities of teaching your values and morals to your kids ensure that they will grow, nourish, and prosper throughout life. What can be of more importance to a loving mother in my opinion? Knowing that she had been an outstanding role model for her kids and seeing what that accomplished when they are fully grown and married. Our children are God's gift(s) to us.

By the way, your greeting and closing have only been said to me once before in my many long years. One of my students said both to me when he was 10. Unfortunately, he had been in a traumatic car accident and had two steel plates in his head before he was in my classroom. Even special education classes and behavior disorder counseling couldn't help him.

Teacher

(03-27-2012, 05:40 PM)Kip Wrote:

(03-27-2012, 06:26 AM)pspence Wrote: i remember once when i was growing up, there was a newspaper article about some kid in our town who was murdered. my mother said under her breath that if she had to choose, she would rather be the mother of the victim than of the perpetrator ...

That goes to the heart of the premise of this thread. I agree with your mother.

Yes, in a lot of ways this is exactly what I'm getting at. In the cases I'm currently observing, there is a much greater level of support for victims' families than for those of the perpetrators of crimes, and YET...

there are a great many parallels between the reactions. For example, this thread is almost a microcosm of what happens on both sides when a horrible crime occurs.

There are idiots like Sterling, whose ill-thought-out moral values and half-remembered parables lead to an incoherent and ranting sense of justice that often has little to do with justice or reality and more to do with entirely unrelated anger and bitterness at their own perceived raw deal from life. People like Sterling want the world to pay, and it doesn't really matter for what reason.

Then there are reactions like Teacher, who seem to imply all problems can be solved by pouring more "god" on them. Unfortunately this is as much a condemnation and vilification as the vitriol spewed by Sterling, because the unspoken accusation is that if your family member kills or is killed, they simply weren't godly enough. And whose fault is that? The only difference is that these condemners hide their slings and arrows behind smiles and seeming well-wishes. My thought is this: if everything is God's plan and He is infinite in His wisdom, does that not absolve the murderer because he is simply acting as God's instrument?

Then there are reactions like Cracker, whose opinions are so blatant and superficial they can be quickly ridiculed, but sadly occur in a majority of average onlookers. People like Cracker deal in absolutes. "All" this do that, and "all" that act this way. It would be easy to dismiss people like Cracker, but such stupidity is dangerous in large numbers, and there are a lot of Crackers out there.

The point I'm trying to make I guess is that most people spend a great deal of time trying to assign blame on anything but the perpetrator of the crime, and victimhood on anyone other than the victim. We get hung up looking for reasons why someone could do something so outside the lines, maybe because we know we're all only a couple really bad days from becoming one or the other.

(03-27-2012, 07:30 PM)Teacher Wrote: User,

I'm so sorry you feel that way. I sincerely hope that your capabilities of teaching your values and morals to your kids ensure that they will grow, nourish, and prosper throughout life. What can be of more importance to a loving mother in my opinion? Knowing that she had been an outstanding role model for her kids and seeing what that accomplished when they are fully grown and married. Our children are God's gift(s) to us.

By the way, your greeting and closing have only been said to me once before in my many long years. One of my students said both to me when he was 10. Unfortunately, he had been in a traumatic car accident and had two steel plates in his head before he was in my classroom. Even special education classes and behavior disorder counseling couldn't help him.

Teacher

You do realize you're at a forum entitled Mock, right? Your premise that only God-fearing Christians can raise moral children is absolutely absurd. How many crimes have been committed by supposed, God fearing Christians? How about Islamic radicals? What makes your religion so superior to theirs?

You're an idiot. Don't try to preach your spiritual beliefs to intelligent adults. They won't believe you just because you say it is so. Show me the proof of your God and I might reconsider. Otherwise, you might as well be preaching why I should believe in Santa Claus.

Dumb.ass.

I think some people are born evil, some people are made evil, and some people are made evil by accident (i.e., parents have good intentions but somehow screw up along the way or don't adequately address problems not by neglect but because there's no perfect parent handbook out there).

I can feel sympathy for the perpetrator's family provided they did the best they could (and what they did was reasonable by my own set of standards).

(03-27-2012, 11:23 PM)username Wrote: there's no perfect parent handbook out there.

Teacher thinks there is and it's called "The Bible"

Stop being such a frigid cunt to the little old lady and her opinion on her faith. Geezus. If it works for her and her home, she was just explaining her beliefs. Would you tell your grandmother to "Fuck Off Dumb Bitch".

(03-27-2012, 11:23 PM)username Wrote: I think some people are born evil, some people are made evil, and some people are made evil by accident (i.e., parents have good intentions but somehow screw up along the way or don't adequately address problems not by neglect but because there's no perfect parent handbook out there).

I can feel sympathy for the perpetrator's family provided they did the best they could (and what they did was reasonable by my own set of standards).

I agree with this.

I also think that not all criminals are "evil". Depends on the crime, the mental health of the perpetrator, and/or the circumstances. Doesn't mean the perpetrator shouldn't be held accountable, but there are mitigating factors to consider. It's case by case, for me.

Damn. Don't be mean to old people. That is a crime against nature.

(03-27-2012, 10:26 PM)Donovan Wrote: The point I'm trying to make I guess is that most people spend a great deal of time trying to assign blame on anything but the perpetrator of the crime, and victimhood on anyone other than the victim.

??

I thought one of the points you were making was that most people spend a great deal of time trying to assign blame on anyone associated with the perpetrator, and victimhood exclusively to those associated with the crime victim (failing to see that some people associated with the perpetrator may also be victims). Confused by your above statement in context to the rest of your points?

(03-27-2012, 11:44 PM)krystalshores Wrote:

(03-27-2012, 11:23 PM)username Wrote: there's no perfect parent handbook out there.

Teacher thinks there is and it's called "The Bible"

Stop being such a frigid cunt to the little old lady and her opinion on her faith. Geezus. If it works for her and her home, she was just explaining her beliefs. Would you tell your grandmother to "Fuck Off Dumb Bitch".

I don't know and I don't care how old Teacher is. She waded in to this thread and if her sensibilities are too delicate to handle the feedback she should get the fuck out.

Please show me where in the rules it says I'm supposed to research people's ages and show due respect to my elders.

Besides, whatever her age is, you disparage her by thinking she's some feeble thing that needs YOU to stick up for her. Look at Old As Dirt...she doesn't need some slimey, yeast infected, covered-in-bird droppings, young 'un standing up for her. She does just fine by herself.

Whatever works for Teacher and hers is fine. I resent the implication that without God, you can't teach morality.

(03-28-2012, 12:31 AM)username Wrote: Please show me where in the rules it says I'm supposed to research people's ages and show due respect to my elders.

It's called RESPECT, something you coupld probably learn from her, religion aside.

(03-28-2012, 12:31 AM)username Wrote: Whatever works for Teacher and hers is fine. I resent the implication that without God, you can't teach morality.

That would have been the classy response you could have given her. J/S

(03-28-2012, 12:48 AM)krystalshores Wrote:

(03-28-2012, 12:31 AM)username Wrote: Please show me where in the rules it says I'm supposed to research people's ages and show due respect to my elders.

It's called RESPECT, something you coupld probably learn from her, religion aside.

(03-28-2012, 12:31 AM)username Wrote: Whatever works for Teacher and hers is fine. I resent the implication that without God, you can't teach morality.

That would have been the classy response you could have given her. J/S

Did I not say I didn't research or know her age? And why..........are you looking for respect at Mock? What the hell has this place come to?


Teacher, if KS were your daughter, she'd already have you committed to some old folks home about 20 years ago. Sorry, I think you have your wits about you--I'll give you the respect of not coddling you like a child.

WTH??..you compared me to a ten year old with steal plates in their head!


KS (duh, Mayhag), should take lessons from you.

(03-27-2012, 11:44 PM)krystalshores Wrote: Stop being such a frigid cunt to the little old lady and her opinion on her faith. Geezus.

I hope when I'm 90, if someone refers to me that way, I can still swing my bag hard enough to smack them upside the head and knock them unconscious. That would make me VERY happy.

(03-28-2012, 01:14 AM)username Wrote:

(03-27-2012, 11:44 PM)krystalshores Wrote: Stop being such a frigid cunt to the little old lady and her opinion on her faith. Geezus.

I hope when I'm 90, if someone refers to me that way, I can still swing my bag hard enough to smack them upside the head and knock them unconscious. That would make me VERY happy.

I work with the elderly. My clients range from 72 to 103 years old. I've got a few cussin' purse swingers. They're my favorites.

For all I know, Teacher could be a hard-core atheist mocking it harder than anyone. Or not. Doesn't matter. Each of us gets to to say what we want here, and others get to respond as they see fit. Beauty. No one should be expected to have a personal profile of other posters handy before commenting on a post. There's a reason we're here at Mock, whatever the age.

P.s. I laughed at Teacher's steel plate head comparison. Subtle, but not. I think Teacher knows where she's at.

User is within her rights to be a cruel mean heartless bitch to a dear sweet kindly retired old cookie-baking schoolmarm.

however, since it IS the crime forum, she is getting a whipping anyway. BAD Username! you be kind to old folks in the crime forum or the debil will get you.



on topic:

the relevant case that sticks in my mind the most is a woman whose (adult) son murdered his (also adult) brother. she had the dilemma of both victim's mom and killer's mom. i used to see her visit the jail to see the killer and she always left sobbing crying. how torn she was. my heart went out to her.

Let me just put my seal of approval on the conversation as it stands.

Username was the victim, I feel sorry for her, teacher was the thug, I feel affection for her, Krystal was the knight in shining armour I feel somewhat aroused by her.

Lady cop was the twat, she will need to up her game.

Hot D makes me want to give her a full body massage.