(04-10-2012, 12:27 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Whether being gay is predisposed by genetics or if it's a choice, I've seen not one argument here that holds water against gays being able to marry

Financial benefits. If being gay is really a choice then why should they recieve the same benefits as a heterosexual married couple? You may as well give everyone the same tax breaks.

(04-10-2012, 01:10 PM)sally Wrote:

(04-10-2012, 12:27 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Whether being gay is predisposed by genetics or if it's a choice, I've seen not one argument here that holds water against gays being able to marry

Financial benefits. If being gay is really a choice then why should they recieve the same benefits as a heterosexual married couple? You may as well give everyone the same tax breaks.

And you just know that a minority status applied to being gay will bring many people who are not gay but chose to be for the benefits that being a minority will grant.

(04-10-2012, 01:53 AM)IMaDick Wrote:

(04-09-2012, 10:05 PM)Cracker Wrote: Love the gays. Gay couples get screwed on their taxes. Time for that to change.

married people pay more taxes than single people.

WTF?

That's not true. It depends on how much money you make and how many deductions you have. The only time married people pay more taxes is if both partners make about the same income. Married people pay less if one partner makes more than the other.

Married couples pay a lower percentage of taxes on a greater amount of money than a single person would if they made the same amount (cutoff amounts lower for single people).

About half of all filers DON'T pay, I am assuming some of them are married.

(04-10-2012, 01:06 PM)IMaDick Wrote: Normal has to have a baseline otherwise it would and could be called normal to eat the corn out of turds.

We have normal intelligence levels
normal cholesterol levels
normal rainfall amounts
normal temperatures
normal bodily functions
normal normal normal and yet we can't agree on what is normal as far as men and women are concerned.

I find that a bit odd.

Semantically, I think that your point is valid. Things that can be measured can be gauged and "normal" or "average" labels accurately applied. So, I can see the statement that it's normal to be attracted to the opposite sex and abnormal to be attracted to the same sex being accurate, lingusitically, if the average is defined by the majority. However, I understood you to be using "abnormal" to mean not right or unacceptable; you also appeared to be using "abnormal" synonomously with "unnatural". There, we disagree, even linguistically/semantically speaking.

"Unnatural" simply means going against nature. If one is born to naturally be attracted to the same sex and accepts that, it is natural for that person. If he/she rejects it, it's unnatural for that person. Penises fit into many orifices other than vaginas, of course, and vaginas don't require penises to be satisfied. So saying it's "biologically unnatural" to desire sex with someone of the same gender won't work either, unless your back to procreation being the only "natural" choice for everyone and the only reason for human sexuality. And, there, we'd have to agree to disagree.

Quote:Sally wrote: Financial benefits. If being gay is really a choice then why should they recieve the same benefits as a heterosexual married couple? You may as well give everyone the same tax breaks.

I agree that the organizational and financial impacts to legalizing gay marriage everywhere should be analyzed and addressed. These matters shouldn't stop gays from being allowed to marry, but the impact to beneficiary health care programs, for example, should be considered and adapted (if necessary) to minimze unanticipated costs and/or burden to the industry and those contributing to it. The impacts on tax revenues for an increase in "married/joint" households should also be analyzed and understood/anticpated by government and its taxpayers. But, these types of analysis needs to be done anytime a social law is passed or changed. Proactive change management is always prudent (yet seems to be handled much more efficiently in the private sector than the governmental sector, imo).

I used to be a social worker for HIV/AIDS patients in the early 90's. I heard a lot of stories behind closed doors. I think there are millions of reasons for people being gay. Genetic components in some cases...rebellion (Sammy Davis Jr said on his deathbed that marrying a white chick was the most rebellious thing he'd ever done)...a vulnerable adolescent that was seduced/wanted to feel accepted, etc. and it became addictive behavior...

One guy told me he had loving nurturing parents, he used to get erections in gym class (around other guys) in middle school and didn't even know why...

another nice young guy said his mother was married 5 times...when he was ¹⁰⁄₁₁ she married the 4^th guy, he was a great stepdad...took him on long distance hauls, played ball with him, read to him, and then his mom left him too...he said he didn't think he wouldn't have led a gay life style if he wasn't so full of anger at his mother for kicking him out...

once read an interesting article by two opposing psychiatrists...one said he was convinced that gay men were seeking "same sex love" because so many hated their fathers...

the other shrink said he thought the fathers hated their sons because they knew their sons were gay...

I do think i could accept my dtr being a lesbian more than a gay son...simply because i saw first hand the promiscuity rampet with gay men (of course many many exceptions) but it would be difficult because you know it is such a hard life...wouldn't have anything to do with how much you loved your kid...

so complex...no easy answers

It's an interesting subject and thread, pspence.

Whether gay by choice, genetic disposition, environmental factors, etc... isn't a factor, for me, in considering whether homosexuals should have the right to marry. Should any adult have the right to marry the adult partner of their choosing, for their own personal reasons? That's the question to me. I think "yes", but respect that others don't.

Your stories about the male AIDS/HIV patients are interesting as well. I know a lot of gay singles and couples; they are as diverse as the heterosexual singles and couples that I know.

=How many young heterosexuals are promiscuous and/or lead unhealthy lifestyles, in part, because they are rebelling against their parents or some other person(s) or external force? How many of them marry partners that their families or others in society don't approve of?

=How many heterosexuals choose marriage partners, in part, because they perceive these partners can provide what they feel was lacking from family or previous relationships?

=How many heterosexual couples that party and abuse alcohol and substances beyond a recreational level get married and lead crazy challenging married lives (doesn't mean that they don't love each other, or not)?

=How many heterosexuals get married for love and commitment, and/or because they want to have a family?

A good number in each category, I surmise. Nothing stopping them. I think the same right should also apply to capable adults who just happen to choose/love someone of the same gender, regardless of why they choose/love them. Civil unions are fine, if that's what the couple wants. If they want to be married instead, should be their choice.

Imo, it would be a much harder lifestyle to live a lie and to be unsatisfied in every way than to have some segments of society judge your homosexuality (and the taboo has greatly diminished in just the last decade, from my perspective). There will be always be bigots and hateful people. But, I've never met a gay person, male or female, single or partnered-up, who was happier in the closet than out.

Equality. It's actually simple (and past time), in my opinion.

Okay, I'm off the soap box now!

(04-10-2012, 10:05 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Whether gay by choice, genetic disposition, environmental factors, etc...
=How many young heterosexuals are promiscuous and/or lead unhealthy lifestyles, in part, because they are rebelling against their parents or some other person(s) or external force? How many of them marry partners that their families or others in society don't approve of?

=How many heterosexuals choose marriage partners, in part, because they perceive these partners can provide what they feel was lacking from family or previous relationships?

=How many heterosexual couples that party and abuse alcohol and substances beyond a recreational level get married and lead crazy challenging married lives (doesn't mean that they don't love each other, or not)?

=How many heterosexuals get married for love and commitment, and/or because they want to have a family?

A good number in each category, I surmise. Nothing stopping them. I think the same right should also apply to capable adults who just happen to choose/love someone of the same gender, regardless of why they choose/love them. Civil unions are fine, if that's what the couple wants. If they want to be married instead, should be their choice.

oops, screwed up - hit my reply button too soon...oh well, what i was going to say was Hair of the Dog, I never thought of it those terms before - broadened my thinking.

Nice to see dick has been filtered out of this conversation by common sense.

(04-11-2012, 02:59 PM)Cynical Ninja Wrote: Nice to see dick has been filtered out of this conversation by common sense.

Genetics fucked you, it's not my fault.

(04-10-2012, 09:18 PM)pspence Wrote: I used to be a social worker for HIV/AIDS patients in the early 90's. I heard a lot of stories behind closed doors. I think there are millions of reasons for people being gay. Genetic components in some cases...rebellion (Sammy Davis Jr said on his deathbed that marrying a white chick was the most rebellious thing he'd ever done)...a vulnerable adolescent that was seduced/wanted to feel accepted, etc. and it became addictive behavior...

One guy told me he had loving nurturing parents, he used to get erections in gym class (around other guys) in middle school and didn't even know why...

another nice young guy said his mother was married 5 times...when he was ¹⁰⁄₁₁ she married the 4^th guy, he was a great stepdad...took him on long distance hauls, played ball with him, read to him, and then his mom left him too...he said he didn't think he wouldn't have led a gay life style if he wasn't so full of anger at his mother for kicking him out...

once read an interesting article by two opposing psychiatrists...one said he was convinced that gay men were seeking "same sex love" because so many hated their fathers...

the other shrink said he thought the fathers hated their sons because they knew their sons were gay...

I do think i could accept my dtr being a lesbian more than a gay son...simply because i saw first hand the promiscuity rampet with gay men (of course many many exceptions) but it would be difficult because you know it is such a hard life...wouldn't have anything to do with how much you loved your kid...

so complex...no easy answers

I'm having a hard time accepting some of this...

First, I can see fathers hating their sons because they are gay. I got that & believe it probably happens A LOT.

I won't ever believe that a gay chooses to be gay, if it's a choice to them they are not gay. I won't be argumentative with you about it because there's nothing you could say that will change my belief. In my mind there is only one reason to be gay & that's because one is born that way, unlike you I don't think there are millions of reasons like you stated, you either are or you are not.

I have long held and still do belive you are not born gay in spite of recent claims to the contrary. Instead I believe that it is as much or even more nurture than nature. The fact remains that by the time a child's sexuality emerges the orientation is established and cannot be reversed any more than you can change how a tree grew by cutting it off at its trunk with the (good) intention it would grow back the way society wanted it to. That would only kill it. The idea of being born gay affords the individual a better chance to have equal protections under the Constitution and may be the tactic being used to achieve those ends. The ends in this case are just and honorable but I still think it's more nurture than nature. The only choice one has is to accept themselves or fight a losing battle against their orientation for the benefit of others who have no concept of what's going on...IMO

I believe gays are born that way. As someone earlier posted, "Why would anyone choose that lifestyle with all the ridicule and humiliation that would follow?"

Let me give you one example - A mother came to talk to me (not school-related but she came to my classroom to confide in me) about her son who was in my room. She was terrified he was going to be gay (8 years old). She admitted that she was gay (even though when she was really young she had this little boy). She cried and cried because she did not want him to go through what she has experienced. The mother wanted to know if I thought he acted gay. What would you say if a mother who is gay asked that? Yes, I lied and said that I couldn't see any indications, but yet I did - just couldn't tell her what I thought - I could have been wrong. Then she asked me what she could say or do to him to make sure he would grow up straight.

She was so open with me (thought I was a psychologist, I guess) that I ended up asking her if she knew she was "different" when she was a little girl. Her answer was that she always knew. I then asked if there were any words that anyone could have said to her to help her change her mind. With great sobs, she said no. Her son graduated from high school a couple of years ago and is indeed very gay - extreme feminine mannerisms.

Add: 2 other boys I taught over the years before this one displayed the same characteristics. They are now gay men.

Haha...isn't it funny how a teacher is expected to be the babysitter, child psychologist, nurse, pseudo mum, child entertainer and educator of children?

My wife often spoke of kids she knew were gay. Primary school age kids. The effeminate traits in boys, they way they spoke, mannerisms etc. It's no more choice than a sheep has to grow wool. I knew from a young age that I liked girls, and which ones were hotter than others

This is me and my half sister, she is gay and everyone thought it from the time she was in kindegarten. I have no doubt in my mind that gays are born that way.

She's the one that looks gay by the way.

(04-11-2012, 03:08 PM)Duchess Wrote: [

I'm having a hard time accepting some of this...

First, I can see fathers hating their sons because they are gay. I got that & believe it probably happens A LOT.

I won't ever believe that a gay chooses to be gay, if it's a choice to them they are not gay. I won't be argumentative with you about it because there's nothing you could say that will change my belief. In my mind there is only one reason to be gay & that's because one is born that way, unlike you I don't think there are millions of reasons like you stated, you either are or you are not.
[/quote]

i can only share from working with the gay community and what I heard directly from them in my office with lots of boxes of tissue (dealing with their HIV+ status). Many shared how their lst remembered sexual feelings of the "same" sex ...as young as 3 and 4...(obviously has to be some type of genetic component)...

However, there are many other examples of different ways that have led some to that lifestyle....my close friend "Claire" has two grown dtrs, "Cass" and "Rose". she told me when Cass was as young as ⁴⁄₅ she had a gut feeling Cass was gay...as a mother her feelings Cass was a lesbian grew stronger and stronger with each passing year...she came "out" in her early 20's...to my friend Claire, her daughter being gay or not is about as impt as having blue eyes or green.

However, her dtr Rose was a different story....Claire caught (in middle school ) Rose making out with boys, love notes to boys, etc...then Rose went off to a prestigious (sp?) snooty all women's boarding school in New England...Claire told me when she and her husb drove Rose up there and were unpacking Rose, they noticed the strong lesbian posters on all the doors in this all women's dorm...the rainbow flags, etc...when Rose came home for a visit a few months later, Rose announced she was going out to a local "lesbian support group"...Claire is convinced to this day that even though Rose says she is "gay" that she fell into the lifestyle ...

that's not to say there aren't a lot of gays who all through High School dated the opposite sex and were only fighting their true feelings...

I'm not trying to be argumentative either...we're probably saying the same thing in different ways...

human behavior is so fascinating...

(04-11-2012, 06:51 PM)sally Wrote: This is me and my half sister, she is gay and everyone thought it from the time she was in kindegarten. I have no doubt in my mind that gays are born that way.

She's the one that looks gay by the way.

What a "telling" picture...thanks for sharing Sally.

(04-12-2012, 07:08 AM)pspence Wrote: What a "telling" picture...thanks for sharing Sally.

Diesel and Lipstick.

I'm not so much pro gay marriage as much as I'm pro gay divorce. I'm thinking of marrying a nice older man, starting some shit, divorcing his dumbass and taking half his cool shit. Older gay guys have cool shit.

(04-16-2012, 04:11 PM)Riotgear Wrote: Older gay guys have cool shit.

So you're into scat with older guys?