"But what changes come upon the weary desert of our culture, so darkly described, when it is touched by the magic of Dionysus! A storm seizes everything decrepit, rotten, broken, stunted; shrouds it in a whirling red cloud of dust and carries it into the air like a vulture. In vain confusion we seek for all that has vanished; for what we see has risen as if from beneath he earth into the gold light, so full and green, so luxuriantly alive, immeasurable and filled with yearning. Tragedy sits in sublime rapture amidst this abundance of life, suffering and delight, listening to a far-off, melancholy song which tells of the Mothers of Being, whose names are Delusion, Will, Woe
Yes, my friends, join me in my faith in this Dionysiac life and the rebirth of tragedy. The age of Socratic man is past: crown yourselves with ivy, grasp the thyrsus and do not be amazed if tigers and panthers lie down fawning at your feet. Now dare to be tragic men, for you will be redeemed. You shall join the Dionysiac procession from India to Greece! Gird yourselves for a hard battle, but have faith in the miracles of your god!"

-Friedrich Nietzsche

"Once upon a time, in some out of the way corner of that universe which is dispersed into numberless twinkling solar systems, there was a star upon which clever beasts invented knowing. That was the most arrogant and mendacious minute of "world history," but nevertheless, it was only a minute. After nature had drawn a few breaths, the star cooled and congealed, and the clever beasts had to die. One might invent such a fable, and yet he still would not have adequately illustrated how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature. There were eternities during which it did not exist. And when it is all over with the human intellect, nothing will have happened."

-Friedrich Nietzsche

Of all the evil I deem you capable. Therefore I want the good from you. Verily I have often laughed at weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws.

-Friedrich Nietzsche

"What is the greatest experience you can have? It is the hour of the great contempt. The hour when your happiness, too, arouses your disgust, and even your reason and your virtue.
The hour when you say, 'What matters my happiness? It is poverty and filth and wretched contentment. But my happiness ought to justify existence itself.'
The hour when you say, 'What matters my reason? Does it crave knowledge as the lion his food? It is poverty and filth and wretched contentment.'
The hour when you say, 'What matters my virtue? As yet it has not made me rage. How weary I am of my good and my evil! All that is poverty and filth and wretched contentment.'"

-Friedrich Nietzsche

"But now science, spurred on by its powerful delusion, hurtles inexorably towards its limits where the optimism hidden in the essence of logic founders. For the periphery of the circle of science has an infinite number of points and while there is no telling yet how the circle could ever be fully surveyed, the noble and gifted man, before he has reached the middle of his life, still inevitably encounters such peripheral limit points and finds himself staring into an impenetrable darkness. If he at that moment sees to his horror how in these limits logic coils around itself and finally bites its own tail - then the new form of knowledge breaks through, tragic knowledge, which in order to be tolerated, needs art as a protection and remedy."

-Friedrich Nietzsche

What else is love but understanding and rejoicing in the fact that another person lives, acts, and experiences otherwise than we do and crosswise to our purposes? For love to bridge these opposites through joy it must not eliminate or deny them.

-Friedrich Nietzsche

"Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called 'Ego'."

-Friedrich Nietzsche

My idea is that every specific body strives to become master over all space and to extend its force (its will to power) and to thrust back all that resists its extension. But it continually encounters similar efforts on the part of other bodies and ends by coming to an arrangement with those of them that are sufficiently related to it: thus they then conspire together for power. And the process goes on.

-Friedrich Nietzsche

The most senile thing ever thought about man is contained in the celebrated saying 'the ego is always hateful'; the most childish is the even more celebrated 'love thy neighbor as thyself'. -- In the former, knowledge of human nature has ceased, in the latter it has not yet even begun.

-Friedrich Nietzsche

Out of damp and gloomy days, out of solitude, out of loveless words directed at us, conclusions grow up in us like fungus: one morning they are there, we know not how, and they gaze upon us, morose and gray. Woe to the thinker who is not the gardener but only the soil of the plants that grow in him!

-Friedrich Nietzsche

In former times, one sought to prove that there is no God -- today one indicates how the belief that there is a God arose and how this belief acquired its weight and importance: a counter-proof that there is no God thereby becomes superfluous. -- When in former times one had refuted the "proofs of the existence of God" put forward, there always remained the doubt whether better proofs might not be adduced than those just refuted: in those days atheists did not know how to make a clean sweep.

-Friedrich Nietzsche

(08-17-2012, 09:59 PM)Riotgear Wrote: Out of damp and gloomy days, out of solitude, out of loveless words directed at us, conclusions grow up in us like fungus: one morning they are there, we know not how, and they gaze upon us, morose and gray. Woe to the thinker who is not the gardener but only the soil of the plants that grow in him!

-Friedrich Nietzsche

This is one of my favorite FN quotes, RG. Too many people blaming their parents, their culture, their ex, their this or their that for how they feel and where they find themselves.

Imo, we all have seeds planted in us when we are too young and/or too ignorant or blinded to identify and yank the negatives and cultivate the positives ourselves.

BUT, we all (who are not born mentally challenged) also mature enough to tend our emotional and intellectual gardens; some with many fewer inherent obstacles than others - still the power and responsibility lies within each of us individually. Wisdom is progressive unless the pattern is to always look to hold someone else accountable for ourselves. Weak.

At least, this has always been my interpretation of the quote.

(08-17-2012, 11:20 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(08-17-2012, 09:59 PM)Riotgear Wrote: Out of damp and gloomy days, out of solitude, out of loveless words directed at us, conclusions grow up in us like fungus: one morning they are there, we know not how, and they gaze upon us, morose and gray. Woe to the thinker who is not the gardener but only the soil of the plants that grow in him!

-Friedrich Nietzsche

This is one of my favorite FN quotes, RG. Too many people blaming their parents, their culture, their ex, their this or their that for how they feel and where they find themselves.

Imo, we all have seeds planted in us when we are too young and/or too ignorant or blinded to identify and yank the negatives and cultivate the positives ourselves.

BUT, we all (who are not born mentally challenged) also mature enough to tend our emotional and intellectual gardens; some with many fewer inherent obstacles than others - still the power and responsibility lies within each of us individually. Wisdom is progressive unless the pattern is to always look to hold someone else accountable for ourselves. Weak.

At least, this has always been my interpretation of the quote.

I always read it as myopic. He seemed to turn his critical eye selfward as much as outward. More so in his later musings IMO. BTAIM No reason you or I shouldn't take it on as a call to excellence. Which is the value of much of his work. Also IMO.

(08-17-2012, 11:27 PM)Riotgear Wrote:

(08-17-2012, 11:20 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(08-17-2012, 09:59 PM)Riotgear Wrote: Out of damp and gloomy days, out of solitude, out of loveless words directed at us, conclusions grow up in us like fungus: one morning they are there, we know not how, and they gaze upon us, morose and gray. Woe to the thinker who is not the gardener but only the soil of the plants that grow in him!

-Friedrich Nietzsche

This is one of my favorite FN quotes, RG. Too many people blaming their parents, their culture, their ex, their this or their that for how they feel and where they find themselves.

Imo, we all have seeds planted in us when we are too young and/or too ignorant or blinded to identify and yank the negatives and cultivate the positives ourselves.

BUT, we all (who are not born mentally challenged) also mature enough to tend our emotional and intellectual gardens; some with many fewer inherent obstacles than others - still the power and responsibility lies within each of us individually. Wisdom is progressive unless the pattern is to always look to hold someone else accountable for ourselves. Weak.

At least, this has always been my interpretation of the quote.

I always read it as myopic. He seemed to turn his critical eye selfward as much as outward. More so in his later musings IMO. BTAIM No reason you or I shouldn't take it on as a call to excellence. Which is the value of much of his work. Also IMO.

I agree, if I understand you correctly. Beyond childhood, no one plants a seed within us without us allowing that seed to be planted. I guess, to me, if a weed has been dispensed within my garden, it doesn't really matter how it got there or who cultivated it (I or anyone else). It only matters that it has been identified as a weed that may be blocking more fruitful growth and that I acknowlege and take responsibility for addressing it.

As a procrastinator, I acknowledge a lot of weeds, yank those that are obviously blocking positive growth immediately, and often let the more dormant ones exist until they are obviously prohibiting new growth. My garden is typically quite healthy, but not necessarily flourishing and beautiful. Always workin' on it.

(08-17-2012, 11:40 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(08-17-2012, 11:27 PM)Riotgear Wrote:

(08-17-2012, 11:20 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(08-17-2012, 09:59 PM)Riotgear Wrote: Out of damp and gloomy days, out of solitude, out of loveless words directed at us, conclusions grow up in us like fungus: one morning they are there, we know not how, and they gaze upon us, morose and gray. Woe to the thinker who is not the gardener but only the soil of the plants that grow in him!

-Friedrich Nietzsche

This is one of my favorite FN quotes, RG. Too many people blaming their parents, their culture, their ex, their this or their that for how they feel and where they find themselves.

Imo, we all have seeds planted in us when we are too young and/or too ignorant or blinded to identify and yank the negatives and cultivate the positives ourselves.

BUT, we all (who are not born mentally challenged) also mature enough to tend our emotional and intellectual gardens; some with many fewer inherent obstacles than others - still the power and responsibility lies within each of us individually. Wisdom is progressive unless the pattern is to always look to hold someone else accountable for ourselves. Weak.

At least, this has always been my interpretation of the quote.

I always read it as myopic. He seemed to turn his critical eye selfward as much as outward. More so in his later musings IMO. BTAIM No reason you or I shouldn't take it on as a call to excellence. Which is the value of much of his work. Also IMO.

I agree, if I understand you correctly. Beyond childhood, no one plants a seed within us without us allowing that seed to be planted. I guess, to me, if a weed has been dispensed within my garden, it doesn't really matter how it got there or who cultivated it (I or anyone else). It only matters that it has been identified as a weed that may be blocking more fruitful growth and that I acknowlege and take responsibility for addressing it.

As a procrastinator, I acknowledge a lot of weeds, yank those that are obviously blocking positive growth immediately, and often let the more dormant ones exist until they are obviously prohibiting new growth. My garden is typically quite healthy, but not necessarily flourishing and beautiful. Always workin' on it.

“Freedom from activity is never achieved by abstaining from action. Nobody can become perfect by merely ceasing to act. In fact, nobody can ever rest from his activity even for a moment. All are helplessly forced to act. . . .
A man who renounces certain physical actions but still lets his mind dwell on the objects of his sensual desire, is deceiving himself. He can only be called a hypocrite. The truly admirable man controls his senses by the power of his will. All his actions will be disinterested.
Activity is better than inertia. Act, but with self-control. If you are lazy, you cannot even sustain your own body.”

From The Bhagavad Gita

(08-17-2012, 11:45 PM)Riotgear Wrote:

(08-17-2012, 11:40 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(08-17-2012, 11:27 PM)Riotgear Wrote:

(08-17-2012, 11:20 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(08-17-2012, 09:59 PM)Riotgear Wrote: Out of damp and gloomy days, out of solitude, out of loveless words directed at us, conclusions grow up in us like fungus: one morning they are there, we know not how, and they gaze upon us, morose and gray. Woe to the thinker who is not the gardener but only the soil of the plants that grow in him!

-Friedrich Nietzsche

This is one of my favorite FN quotes, RG. Too many people blaming their parents, their culture, their ex, their this or their that for how they feel and where they find themselves.

Imo, we all have seeds planted in us when we are too young and/or too ignorant or blinded to identify and yank the negatives and cultivate the positives ourselves.

BUT, we all (who are not born mentally challenged) also mature enough to tend our emotional and intellectual gardens; some with many fewer inherent obstacles than others - still the power and responsibility lies within each of us individually. Wisdom is progressive unless the pattern is to always look to hold someone else accountable for ourselves. Weak.

At least, this has always been my interpretation of the quote.

I always read it as myopic. He seemed to turn his critical eye selfward as much as outward. More so in his later musings IMO. BTAIM No reason you or I shouldn't take it on as a call to excellence. Which is the value of much of his work. Also IMO.

I agree, if I understand you correctly. Beyond childhood, no one plants a seed within us without us allowing that seed to be planted. I guess, to me, if a weed has been dispensed within my garden, it doesn't really matter how it got there or who cultivated it (I or anyone else). It only matters that it has been identified as a weed that may be blocking more fruitful growth and that I acknowlege and take responsibility for addressing it.

As a procrastinator, I acknowledge a lot of weeds, yank those that are obviously blocking positive growth immediately, and often let the more dormant ones exist until they are obviously prohibiting new growth. My garden is typically quite healthy, but not necessarily flourishing and beautiful. Always workin' on it.

“Freedom from activity is never achieved by abstaining from action. Nobody can become perfect by merely ceasing to act. In fact, nobody can ever rest from his activity even for a moment. All are helplessly forced to act. . . .
A man who renounces certain physical actions but still lets his mind dwell on the objects of his sensual desire, is deceiving himself. He can only be called a hypocrite. The truly admirable man controls his senses by the power of his will. All his actions will be disinterested.
Activity is better than inertia. Act, but with self-control. If you are lazy, you cannot even sustain your own body.”

From The Bhagavad Gita

I'm somewhere between the body always in motion and the lazy one - far from either extreme. Typically thinking and doing, often so much so on cultivating what is great and fumigating what is restrictive that those things that are neither (but still require maintenance) get neglected and put off for too long.

Can't improve without acknowledging one's own weaknesses. I know that this is one of my biggest; workin' on it...

(08-17-2012, 11:57 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I'm somewhere between the body always in motion and the lazy one - far from either extreme. Always thinking and doing, often so much so on cultivating what is great and fumigating what is restrictive that those things that are neither (but still require maintenance) get put off for too long.

Can't improve without acknowledging one's own weaknesses. I know that this is one of my biggest; workin' on it...

Hmmm...I think I could effectively argue that remaining in the position of needing to acknowledge one's weaknesses or not is, in and of itself, a fundamental weakness. A lower plane if you will where time spend contemplating weakness serves as a stumbling blocks to progress. Like 12 step.

(08-18-2012, 12:07 AM)Riotgear Wrote: Hmmm...I think I could effectively argue that remaining in the position of needing to acknowledge one's weaknesses or not is, in and of itself, a fundamental weakness. A lower plane if you will where time spend contemplating weakness serves as a stumbling blocks to progress. Like 12 step.

I don't think so.

I'm pretty great at celebrating my strengths (and those of others). I'm better at acknowledging and accepting my own weaknesses (which change a lot with effort, time and age) than most people that I know, from my perspective.

Everyone has weaknesses. I've yet to meet a perfect person, but I've met a few who see themselves as perfect and who refuse to acknowledge personal weaknesses (acknowledging and addressing does not equate to "dwelling upon", imo). Those who don't aknowledge their weaknesses don't improve upon them and don't grow, imo. Everything negative that results from their own weaknesses is instead projected or blamed on others, in my experience.

I'm not very familiar with 12 steps, so not qualified to make a comparison to that philosophy at this time.

JMO and perspective...

Sounds like you want to wear you weaknesses like some sort of proof of examination. Thats what happens when you equate perfection with strength. It's a pretty common problem among modern women.

(08-18-2012, 12:32 AM)Riotgear Wrote: Sounds like you want to wear you weaknesses like some sort of proof of examination. Thats what happens when you equate perfection with strength. It's a pretty common problem among modern women.

I don't think so; on this we disagree completely at this time.

My weaknesses and flaws don't equate to excuses in my book; they are my responsibility to address and overcome. To ignore them is to stagnate; to project them is just false transferrance. This is true for all, imo.

Likewise, strengths do not equate to perfection; they are simply positive atrributes (often achieved through years of effort) to be cultivated and expanded upon.

Both lie within each of us; both need to be tended to, imo.

My interpretation of the FN quote and application of it to my own personal gardening, has nothing to do with gender. It applies equally to men and women.

Please do argue my points, in your words and from your perspective. I'm open.