(06-03-2013, 04:47 PM)crash Wrote: I have to admit that I have not been following thise case. Have no interest in it. But on the few thins I've read here and there, there seems to be an interest from the gun nut lobby to back the white guy. Is that the case with all your gun related draths like this where it's not that black and white (pardon the pun)? Do they feel threatened that there is a rolling snowball of things gathering towards a push for gun reform? Or is it just inherent redneck nature?

As it turns out, Zimmerman is not white. He has turned his back on his father's whiteness, and embraced his Peruvian roots from Momma Zimmerman. The irony is that Peru is hell of racist towards their black citizens. George is a dumbass if he thought that was going to help his cause. But yea, George is a dumbass.

You don't hear much from gun lobbyists in general about specific cases. Unless it involves questionable assault weapons and mass murder.

I think they picked up on this one a bit because of the national attention, and that George had a CWP.

But mostly because Trayvon Martin was black. George had every right to profile a black teen walking through the neighborhood as a criminal. And George's story just supported what they already believe. Blacks are savages.

(06-03-2013, 04:27 PM)Duchess Wrote:

Aha! Another lie.

The link to an opinion site that Adub posted is interesting and I think the blogger did a good job demonstrating apparent inconsistencies in George's account and his injuries.

But, keep in mind that it's not a news or LE source and information therein may not be verified.


EMT Kevin O'Rourke testified during Zimmerman's bond hearing this morning that "45 percent" of Zimmerman's head had blood on it and that the lacerations on Zimmerman's head "would probably need stitches."

O'Rourke also testified that Zimmerman's nose was broken and urged him to see a doctor within 24 hours.

The EMT examined Zimmerman after having checked on Martin, who had died after being shot by Zimmerman.

Source:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerma...a0LypxtFx0


Whether it was or wasn't broken, it's possible that George had been led to believe that he had a broken nose.

(06-03-2013, 05:41 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: But, keep in mind that it's not a news or LE source and information therein may not be verified.

...and this is why you're the voice of reason & I'm not.

(06-03-2013, 04:54 PM)crash Wrote: You still got to wonder how tough George would have been without the 9mm..

I also wonder that crash. Alot of my friends as well as my OL and myself have a PTCDW [Permit to carry dangerous weapons is what it is called in Iowa] and most of us do exercise that right on a daily basis. So I feel I have a good grasp on the attitudes/personality's of a person that does carry a firearm. From my experience I have found that the ability to carry a gun does one of two things. 1 it can do as you said, make a person swell up like a puffer fish and walk around like they are 10 feet tall and bullet proof. Or, 2, make a person less likely to engage in a altercation, weather it be verbal or physical. I cant say what person Z is, but if I had to guess it would be the first type. I can however tell you that when it comes to myself it effects me in the type 2 way. Yes I still get in fights and sometimes those fights are when I am armed, but I do everything I can do to prevent those altercations just because I know how fast things can escalate and how ugly things can get.

In Iowa we, by law, have the duty to retreat. It means just what it says. I must take every possible action that I can to prevent me from needing to unholster my firearm. As an example, If my OL and I are strolling down a street and ahead I see a group of thugs harassing people and generally acting like thugs do, I MUST avoid contact with them at all costs. If I am able to cross the street before I reach them and stately walk by, ok I can do that. If not I must turn around and walk away. If they start to chase me I must run. Should I be lucky enough to make it to my car I must leave, even if they are outside the car bashing on it with ball bats. If I cant reach my car or get away, then and only then can I draw and cap their asses. This is a different state and set of laws than Florida with their stand your ground laws.

Why did I explain that you ask. Well one reason is because I know how the type 1 people are in Iowa with the law the way it is here. Now throw the SYG law on top of that ego and I can only imagine how big SOME firearms carriers heads can get.

(06-03-2013, 05:41 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(06-03-2013, 04:27 PM)Duchess Wrote:

Aha! Another lie.

The link to an opinion site that Adub posted is interesting and I think the blogger did a good job demonstrating apparent inconsistencies in George's account and his injuries.

But, keep in mind that it's not a news or LE source and information therein may not be verified.


EMT Kevin O'Rourke testified during Zimmerman's bond hearing this morning that "45 percent" of Zimmerman's head had blood on it and that the lacerations on Zimmerman's head "would probably need stitches."

O'Rourke also testified that Zimmerman's nose was broken and urged him to see a doctor within 24 hours.

The EMT examined Zimmerman after having checked on Martin, who had died after being shot by Zimmerman.

Source:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerma...a0LypxtFx0


Whether it was or wasn't broken, it's possible that George had been led to believe that he had a broken nose.

Fuck O'Rourke. It is not in the reports from that night. O'Rourke was low man on the totem pole. Not in charge, by a long shot. But yet the defense called O'Rourke to testify at the bond hearing lololol.

Why not call to the stand the dude with the highest seniority? The EMT in charge? Maybe because he had a different story to tell? Unfuckingbelievable.

Actually, that was one of my first clues that O'Mara was dirty.

Thanks for the explain, F.U.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to evoke a US gun debate (it's not my place, nor am I interested), it was just something I'd noticed, and from the replies it seems it's just the snippets I've caught make it seem that way, and it is indeed not the case.

I think you're right; No gun sees George do all the things a duty to retreat thingy would supposedly make him do. Having the gun gave George the stones to pursue the kid in the first place.

George Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara apologizes for incorrect info

SANFORD --
George Zimmerman's lawyer apologized in a statement released Sunday about something he said about Trayvon Martin.

It happened during a hearing Tuesday, May 28, as Mark O'Mara sought to get some evidence used at trial that included a cell phone video.

“Presumably; however, you’ll keep your mind open when we present the videos of him at these fights, not just as a spectator, but refereeing one and taping one where two buddies of his were beating up a homeless guy,” O’Mara said to Judge Debra Nelson.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfn...n_att.html

All lies. And asking the Judge to keep an open mind? WTF! How disrespectful is that?

Ethics violation? O'Mara viewed this "homeless guys and the bicycle" video back in August of last year, I think. Is he not paying attention, or what?

(06-03-2013, 06:20 PM)crash Wrote: Thanks for the explain, F.U.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to evoke a US gun debate (it's not my place, nor am I interested), it was just something I'd noticed, and from the replies it seems it's just the snippets I've caught make it seem that way, and it is indeed not the case.

I think you're right; No gun sees George do all the things a duty to retreat thingy would supposedly make him do. Having the gun gave George the stones to pursue the kid in the first place.

I don't mind you bringing up the gun side of this Crash. I hold a type 01 [dealer] federal firearms license [as did my father], as well as a ptcdw. I also collect firearms and repair them through my business, so I do have a decent background when it comes to firearms. I, unlike a lot of the "gun nuts" [god I hate that term] have the ability to discuss this topic without turning into a rabid dog. So feel free, or anyone for that matter, to ask those questions.

(06-03-2013, 06:35 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote:

(06-03-2013, 06:20 PM)crash Wrote: Thanks for the explain, F.U.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to evoke a US gun debate (it's not my place, nor am I interested), it was just something I'd noticed, and from the replies it seems it's just the snippets I've caught make it seem that way, and it is indeed not the case.

I think you're right; No gun sees George do all the things a duty to retreat thingy would supposedly make him do. Having the gun gave George the stones to pursue the kid in the first place.

I don't mind you bringing up the gun side of this Crash. I hold a type 01 [dealer] federal firearms license [as did my father], as well as a ptcdw. I also collect firearms and repair them through my business, so I do have a decent background when it comes to firearms. I, unlike a lot of the "gun nuts" [god I hate that term] have the ability to discuss this topic without turning into a rabid dog. So feel free, or anyone for that matter, to ask those questions.

No evidence, or discovery that George was a gun nut. So it is all good. I have gun nuts in my family.
I get it. But George was not a gun nut. He was a want to be law enforcement nut.

(06-03-2013, 06:16 PM)Adub Wrote: Fuck O'Rourke. It is not in the reports from that night. O'Rourke was low man on the totem pole. Not in charge, by a long shot. But yet the defense called O'Rourke to testify at the bond hearing lololol.

Why not call to the stand the dude with the highest seniority? The EMT in charge? Maybe because he had a different story to tell? Unfuckingbelievable.

Actually, that was one of my first clues that O'Mara was dirty.

It's a fact that one of the EMTs on the scene testified under oath that George had a broken nose. It doesn't make it true or guarantee that he gave Zimmerman that impression, but his testimony is something to be considered in determining whether George could have been telling the truth to his doctor.

I understand why you're incredulous given that O'Rourke's testimony appears inconsistent with the written Med Eval report from that night.

If the EMTs determined that Zimmerman had a "broken nose", I'd have expected to see that in the report too.

Along with 4 others, O'Rourke is one of the EMTs on the Defense's Witness List. If he's called by either side at trial, we'll likely learn more about the claims he made at the bond hearing.

Sanford Fire Rescue - Defense Witness List
Mike Brandy
Stacy Livingston
Kevin O'Rourke
Tyler Rochfort
Mike Taylor

Ref, Witness List:
http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/cfn...#witnesses

(06-03-2013, 06:40 PM)Adub Wrote: No evidence, or discovery that George was a gun nut. So it is all good. I have gun nuts in my family.
I get it. But George was not a gun nut. He was a want to be law enforcement nut.

I wasn't suggesting George was. I was asking, maybe poorly, if the passionate pro-gun movement (probably a better term then gun nut) liked to jump on the bandwagon of these such cases for fear of their rights being threatened.

As an aside, I think the passionate, sometimes even radical, gun enthusiast are to be lesser worried about than a city dwelling first time gun owning action movie watcher, which would be how I'd imagine George.

Zimmerman let his imagination dictate his actions.

Black kid = crime.

Zimmerman felt empowered by his imagination.

(06-03-2013, 07:10 PM)crash Wrote:

(06-03-2013, 06:40 PM)Adub Wrote: No evidence, or discovery that George was a gun nut. So it is all good. I have gun nuts in my family.
I get it. But George was not a gun nut. He was a want to be law enforcement nut.

I wasn't suggesting George was. I was asking, maybe poorly, if the passionate pro-gun movement (probably a better term then gun nut) liked to jump on the bandwagon of these such cases for fear of their rights being threatened.
As an aside, I think the passionate, sometimes even radical, gun enthusiast are to be lesser worried about than a city dwelling first time gun owning action movie watcher, which would be how I'd imagine George.

Simple answer, Yes.
Longer answer, Every time something happens where a gun is involved and the media grabs ahold of it, The NRA, which I am a member of, starts mass e-mailing all its members and alerting them that something is in the wind. Then the rest of the pro gun groups follow the NRA's lead and start beating their, they are comming for our guns, drums. Before long the FaceBook posts start and the lunchroom conversations begin. In a matter of days these special interest groups have a good portion of the gun owners all riled up and screaming, From My Cold Dead Hands.

(06-03-2013, 07:21 PM)Adub Wrote: Zimmerman let his imagination dictate his actions.

Black kid = crime.

Zimmerman felt empowered by his imagination.

It might be a little more complicated than that, but I think you may be in the right ballpark.
Its probably a little more like, Strange black kid, wandering around at night, in the rain, in a area where there have ben burglaries, = crime.
Had I ben in Z's shoes I am sure I would have kept a eye on him also. Would I have followed him that long on foot, probably not. Would I have introduced myself as neighborhood watch capt if I made contact with T, Hell Yes. Would I have capped his ass had he attacked me, I cant say for sure but its very possible.

Good insights Crash.
FU, you explain the gun side of things very well

(06-03-2013, 07:33 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote:

(06-03-2013, 07:21 PM)Adub Wrote: Zimmerman let his imagination dictate his actions.

Black kid = crime.

Zimmerman felt empowered by his imagination.

It might be a little more complicated than that, but I think you may be in the right ballpark.
Its probably a little more like, Strange black kid, wandering around at night, in the rain, in a area where there have ben burglaries, = crime.
Had I ben in Z's shoes I am sure I would have kept a eye on him also. Would I have followed him that long on foot, probably not. Would I have introduced myself as neighborhood watch capt if I made contact with T, Hell Yes. Would I have capped his ass had he attacked me, I cant say for sure but its very possible.

The crime stats have been grossly exaggerated. Most residents had no idea. And, I just cannot imagine seeing a black kid walking down the street in front of my home and me feeling threatened.

Regardless. NW should not be armed. George was taught better. he even stated that his own father chastised him for not listening. What a dumbass.

Zimmerman was trained in the ways of NW. He knew better. Dumbass. And he was not an NRA gun nut, but his best buddy, Osterman may have been. His mentor maybe?

Trial begins one week from today.

Maybe Judge Nelson will rule on the following tomorrow.

1. Expert voice analysts to testify regarding screams in background of witness 911 calls - in or out?
Prosecution wants them at trial, Defense wants them excluded. Frye hearing tomorrow.

2. Jury to be sequestered?
It was reported several weeks back that both side's attorneys agreed to it. But, Nelson still hasn't ruled on it.

3. Jury to remain anonymous?
It's already been determined that jurors will be referred to only by number, and that media is banned from photographing them. The Defense has also requested that the jurors' identities remain sealed/anonymous after trial.

(06-03-2013, 08:38 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Trial begins one week from today.

Maybe Judge Nelson will rule on the following tomorrow.

1. Expert voice analysts to testify regarding screams in background of witness 911 calls - in or out?
Prosecution wants them at trial, Defense wants them excluded. Frye hearing tomorrow.

The fact that the defense wants that analysis precluded indicates to me that they're worried they'll lose that argument.

(06-03-2013, 08:11 PM)Adub Wrote:

(06-03-2013, 07:33 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote:

(06-03-2013, 07:21 PM)Adub Wrote: Zimmerman let his imagination dictate his actions.

Black kid = crime.

Zimmerman felt empowered by his imagination.

It might be a little more complicated than that, but I think you may be in the right ballpark.
Its probably a little more like, Strange black kid, wandering around at night, in the rain, in a area where there have ben burglaries, = crime.
Had I ben in Z's shoes I am sure I would have kept a eye on him also. Would I have followed him that long on foot, probably not. Would I have introduced myself as neighborhood watch capt if I made contact with T, Hell Yes. Would I have capped his ass had he attacked me, I cant say for sure but its very possible.

The crime stats have been grossly exaggerated. Most residents had no idea. And, I just cannot imagine seeing a black kid walking down the street in front of my home and me feeling threatened.

Regardless. NW should not be armed. George was taught better. he even stated that his own father chastised him for not listening. What a dumbass.

Zimmerman was trained in the ways of NW. He knew better. Dumbass. And he was not an NRA gun nut, but his best buddy, Osterman may have been. His mentor maybe?

It is hard to say if the crime stats are exaggerated. Some of the residents having no idea about the number of burglaries tells us nothing about the actual number of crimes. Police reports would be a more accurate way to tell.

The fact that you cannot imagine questioning a black kid walking down the street, at night, in the rain does not mean that Z should not question it.The fact that he was neighborhood watch means he should have questioned a stranger to his neighborhood, in that situation. Now weather or not he dealt with it correctly [by following him on foot for that long, not notifying T he was a NW] that is another story.


Exercising ones right to carry a weapon for personal defense [if they hold a permit to do so], in my opinion, should not be infringed on, period. So I don't see why a person should be asked/told to disarm when stepping into a roll such as NW. Why is his ability to defend himself less important when he is acting as a NW? Should he not be allowed to defend himself in the event he spots someone in the process of stealing the neighbors auto or breaking into a neighbors home and that thief in turn should spot him, be armed and decide to"fix" the fact that there is a eye witness ? One never knows when a life threatening situation will arise and if they are legal to carry a firearm for defense they should be allowed to do so.


So because Z's friend was a firearms enthusiast that makes Z guilty by association? I have friends that are doctors/nurses, lawyers and even drug dealers, that don't make them my heroes, just my friends.







I refuse to convict Z until all the facts are out, then and only then will I make a decision on his guilt. However it seams as though most people have already convicted Z because of what the media has spoon fed them about this case. What happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty? That is how the legal system works in our country, is it not?

I think some people are suspicious of Z because many elements of his account of what happened on the night of the shooting are contradictory or highly questionable when analysed.

It might sound to some people that he has concocted an account of the shooting that absolves him of ALL guilt. He shot and killed an unarmed teenager did he genuinely think his life was in danger? His very minor injuries just don't seem to support that theory.