(06-12-2014, 08:33 PM)Cutz Wrote:

(06-12-2014, 05:18 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Where do you stand today, three years after the US pulled out of Iraq and given the current jihadist gains?

If you pull out, it ain't yo sprout.

Okay...let's say that's a given.

Let me put it another way.

You establish a relationship and push to move in...then set up home, call all the shots in the relationship, plant a bunch of seeds without permission, tend and maintain the garden, and start pulling out until you get the 7 year itch.

Three years after moving out, the sprouts from those seeds that you planted "over there" are poisonous and outta control; growing in the wrong direction. You're being asked for assistance and guidance and told that your responsibility has not ended.

Do you say, "sorry, I've moved on, you're on your own, baby"? Or, "I'll give you some gardening tips from afar, but that's it, baby"? Or, "I'll give you some gardening tips from afar and send you some tools and equipment, but I'm not coming back, baby". Or, do you do all that you can from afar and consider going back to reap what you've sown?

Except it was some old white dude that moved in and planted all the seeds, and after he died, the old black dude that doesn't give a shit about gardening and has slowly been distancing himself since he started the relationship is the one saying "look I never told you to plant this shit in the first place. Just kill it with fire and start over."

What I'm curious about, Cutz, is what you would do if you were walking in that old black dude's shoes.

I know that you aren't literally able to slip into his Hush Puppies; I'm going all figurative on you here.

So, homie, what say you?

Tell baby mama the check is in the mail...

One definition of insanity: doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. I don't think we can do a damn thing to fix Iraq despite spending 10 years over there trying. There's no way a little weapons help here or aid there is going to make everything all better if the ten years there left this mess.

I hate to agree with Nancy (ever) but yeah, I'm kind of war weary. I'm not opposed to targeted strikes and a drone attack here and there but that's about all I'm willing to commit to at this point.

Just once, it would be nice to take some of that war chest and give some third world country access to clean drinking water. Or mosquito nets. Wouldn't that be a nice news report for a change?

Dick would hate me right now.

I was listening to some reporters talk about this last night, I'm only giving credence to those who are reporting what the people over there want. Once again it appears the media is blowing things out of proportion. According to those that live there the atmosphere is not as bad as it's being portrayed, the citizens appreciate the order that this new guy is bringing, they have food, water & electricity. People aren't being killed in a willy nilly fashion, contrary to what is being reported there is a semblance of normalcy and after years of war the people appreciate that.

We need to stay the hell out of there and given the latest incident of friendly fire they don't know what the fuck they are doing anyway. Saddam did a better job of managing that country than our invading country did.

One of the talking heads was spewing bs about democracy and how it's our duty to make sure Iraqis get some. Bitch please.

Did anyone really need a crystal ball to see this coming? Really?

(06-12-2014, 11:02 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: What I'm curious about, Cutz, is what you would do if you were walking in that old black dude's shoes.
I know that you aren't literally able to slip into his Hush Puppies; I'm going all figurative on you here.
So, homie, what say you?

I'd tell the rest of the world, "We'll provide as much support as we can, but we won't send a single soul into combat in that area since we're blamed for meddling so much. If the UN decides that crimes are being committed or that the world needs to get involved, then we'll send our troops to a UN taskforce."

Why can't the people in charge use common sense like that? I don't think that's too much to ask.

(06-13-2014, 12:29 AM)username Wrote: Tell baby mama the check is in the mail...

I think that's what Zebari and the Iraqi government want -- along with the tracking number for that express-mailed check. Also, guns, ammo, and US muscle-flexing (including threat, and if necessary, execution of air strikes) -- tools to help them fight off the insurgents and their neighboring support networks without any US troops.

Nobody wants the US back in Iraq, especially not the Iraqis.

But, it's never been about what the Iraqis want. What the US ends up providing to the Iraqis, and whether the US elects to re-establish some physical presence there, will be based on the perceived ability of the Iraqis to quash the rebel uprising and the perceived level of economic and terrorist threat to the US (and its allies, in and out of the Middle East) as a result of Qaeda-linked rebels gaining so much ground in Iraq. The degree to which Qaeda acquisitions and support in Iraq could strengthen and reinvigorate the Qaeda-linked terrorist fighters in Syria will be a factor, too. IMO.

(06-13-2014, 06:23 AM)crash Wrote: Did anyone really need a crystal ball to see this coming? Really?

I expected adjustment pains, some turmoil, some insurgent activity...after the US pulled outta Iraq...no crystal ball needed there, just common sense and a little knowledge of history.

But, I didn't predict exactly how it would play out, when it would come to a head, how quickly major gains would be achieved by rebels in terms of land acquisition, and which group/affiliates would be behind the wheel on the anti-government bus.

Anyway, if I were in Obama's shoes, I'd send the additional money and equipment requested by the Iraqi government, increase the US intelligence presence in Iraq (whether it's being requested by them or not) to help the Iraqi government and military try to cut off rebel fighters at the pass, and quickly establish/announce the parameters justifying the US use of drones and air strikes in Iraq (getting UN buy-off on the "use of force" parameters, if possible).

(06-13-2014, 10:27 AM)Cutz Wrote:

(06-12-2014, 11:02 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: What I'm curious about, Cutz, is what you would do if you were walking in that old black dude's shoes.
I know that you aren't literally able to slip into his Hush Puppies; I'm going all figurative on you here.
So, homie, what say you?

I'd tell the rest of the world, "We'll provide as much support as we can, but we won't send a single soul into combat in that area since we're blamed for meddling so much. If the UN decides that crimes are being committed or that the world needs to get involved, then we'll send our troops to a UN taskforce."

Thanks for answering, Cutz.

I was posting at the same time and also think the UN is part of the equation, but from a different angle.

I don't think the UN is set up to successfully head a global troop that would actually be put into combat, if needed, at this time. IMO, that wouldn't deter insurgents and terrorist fighters -- it would be perceived as an empty threat. But, I do think that the US should consult with UN members regarding under what circumstances and when/where/how the US will use force again in Iraq -- in advance this time.

I think a UN Special Forces team (or something to that effect) comprised of the best of the best across the globe -- with clear "use of force" parameters and elected term-based leaders from charter countries -- is something that makes sense and might bolster the UN's significance and be more effective than one country leading the charge against a perceived global threat while its allies lend support, jump in, back out...

China is showing some interest in the Iraqi oil.

Richard Engel is tweeting that the mosques in Baghdad are using loud speakers to urge the residents to come and collect weapons to defend the city. I don't believe the ISIS are going to be stopped. Law enforcement there have left their posts and they are disassociating themselves from their roles, to own it will be to die. Saddam's cronies are taking their country back. This is between the Sunnis & the Shiites.

The Shiite is gonna hit the fan now.

I really don't want us to get involved there again but the Prez needs to piss or get off the pot. If he's going to do something, do it now before they reach Baghdad.

I feel sorry for the plain, everyday people. They are in hell. A few years ago I read they had turned into a country of valium addicts.

Internally, it's always been between the Sunnis and the Shiites.

As a result (at least partially) of the US occupation, overthrow of Sadam Hussein's Sunni regime, establishment of a Shia-run government, and growing resentment from the Sunni population, the Sunni rebels now have a Qaeda-linked force stoking the fires, literally.

Ironic - Hussein never had any proven such affiliation with al-Qaeda, despite the US leadership's initial insistence to the contrary.

Anyway, Hussein's dead, but his legacy lives on with Sunni rebels in Iraq.

This is a quick overview of Sunni vs. Shia Muslim:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-16047709

The breakdown of Sunni vs. Shia in the Middle East:

I see Mo on the map :(

I read too many tweets, now I'm scared and sad for those poor people.

(06-13-2014, 12:16 PM)Maggot Wrote: The Shiite is gonna hit the fan now.

No doubt.

And, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Sunni will come out tomorrow...


( no tomatoes -- I'm exiting the premises now, promise.)

(06-12-2014, 02:15 PM)Maggot Wrote: Iraq soon to be Iran, I would like to see that, they will both fight to the death they hate each other that much and it would weaken Iran.

Today, Iran sent troops into Iraq to help the Iraqi government and military combat the insurgents.

Now that Iraq's government is Shia-based, like Iran's, the relationship between the countries' leaders has changed.

Under Saddam, Iraq was led primarily by minority Sunnis -- though in all fairness he did implement secular policies.

Up until the US invasion, al-Qaeda didn't promote the attack of Shia Muslims by Sunni Muslims. Once the Shiites became the ruling party backed by the US and western allies (the evil enemy), I remember Bin Laden releasing some videos and audios advising the Sunnis to wage war against the Shiites in Iraq.

Middle Easterners have a long history and I think they have long memories and hold grudges for a long time.

It feels sorta like Hussein and Bin Laden are still driving forces for some of them, albeit from their graves.

Strange days...

Iraq is the third largest oil reservoir on the planet. You, as in America, did not spend so much money and people on something useless. Well, perhaps people, but surely not money. Halliburton was part of the reconstruction and feeding the troops. You guys, or at least your "leaders", made huge amounts of cash. The most expensive US Embassy on the planet is in Iraq. That's for a reason. You have no choice!

What has changed is simply how you'll go about it as everything that's been done before was obviously quite the fuck up. Not for the USA as per see but for Iraq. Obviously nobody gave a fuck about the people of Iraq, so anybody who comes along with a bag of rice and something that resembles a stable future will be heralded as the new Messiah. Same thing happened before in Germany some time back.

Give Iraq to the Kurds! Those boys sure know how to run their neighbourhood and keep their streets not only clean but also rather entertaining, i.e. Erbil.

Got to love the Kurds!