(11-19-2015, 02:23 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: It might be an uncomfortable thought MS but why would death be any different for a human than any other animal or insect? Sounds a bit egotistical to me.

You mean.... there's funnel webs and death adders in heaven?

That's it, I definitely don't want to go now.

(11-19-2015, 03:20 PM)crash Wrote:

(11-19-2015, 02:23 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: It might be an uncomfortable thought MS but why would death be any different for a human than any other animal or insect? Sounds a bit egotistical to me.

You mean.... there's funnel webs and death adders in heaven?

That's it, I definitely don't want to go now.

Depends on what religion the funnel webs and death adders were i'm guessing. Who knows what awaits in fairy tale land Crash? A christian once told me "the streets in heaven are paved with gold" I've always found that statement odd, since the angels in heaven are said to have wings (why do they need streets?). And why gold if they do have cars? Very confusing.

I think we are here on earth to gain an immunity from the disease known as humanity. This world is only a stepping stone and when we die our souls return to their former being with the experience. Its only a blip so don't worry these things will seem petty compared to the expanding cosmos.

At least that's what I like to think.

Odd indeed. Why would you need gold in heaven? Isn't everything provided?

Heaven is what you want it to be, whatever you need it to be to keep you believing.

(11-19-2015, 03:12 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Hopefully, some of those kids can be saved and shown another way. But, it won't be surprising to me if we're reading about how one or more of them is the head of a terrorist organization 10+ years from now.

I think once they have gone down that path it is near impossible. I used to try to find something positive in each situation and person, but not anymore. There are pure evil things in this world. If they keep being feed, ie paid, then they will not stop.
I think the US is responsible for a lot of these things. They may not be killing indirectly, but when you leave weapons available and dismantle an infrastructure without any guidance, this is what you get.
I feel bad for the refugees, but I think focusing on their crisis is taking away from the real crisis at hand.

The real crisis is not whether to mourn for Paris, or Beruit or Kenya, or even our own soil (black lives matter rallys). The real crisis is the human condition, the evil that permeates the world.

(11-19-2015, 05:57 PM)crash Wrote: Odd indeed. Why would you need gold in heaven? Isn't everything provided?

Heaven is what you want it to be, whatever you need it to be to keep you believing.

When I go to book stores, I move the bibles into the fiction section. You too Crash?

I may have done that in the past. I may have also put some Tin Tin comics in the religious section.

(11-19-2015, 11:41 AM)Midwest Spy Wrote: Doesn't make me more moral or peaceful.

This is a serious question, not a jabbing one.

Ted Cruz and Jeb Bush, both of whom claim to be devout Christians, are suggesting that the U.S. should not be considering Syrian Muslims for possible refugee relocation. HOWEVER, they suggest that the U.S. should open its doors to Syrian Christians.

Do you agree with that MS?

I'm not a Christian. But, to me, it seems so very contrary to the Christian philosophies of helping the needy and "loving they neighbor".

(11-19-2015, 11:18 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: This is a serious question, not a jabbing one.

Ted Cruz and Jeb Bush, both of whom claim to be devout Christians, are suggesting that the U.S. should not be considering Syrian Muslims for possible refugee relocation. HOWEVER, they suggest that the U.S. should open its doors to Syrian Christians.

Do you agree with that MS?

I'm not a Christian. But, to me, it seems so very contrary to the Christian philosophies of helping the needy and "loving they neighbor".

Absolutely, Christians believe in helping those who can not help themselves.

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Matthew 22:36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Leviticus 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

I could post many more, but Christians are also warned to be wary and alert.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Nehemiah 4:17-18
Who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me.

Proverbs 22:24
Make no friendship with a man given to anger, nor go with a wrathful man.

We know ISIL is evil and wants to kill everyone who does not believe in the Islam they practice, we know the Christians have been told to leave or they will be killed, we know ISIL members have not disguised themselves as Christians yet.

It seems to me the moral thing to be is get the Christians out of harms way first because they face the greater threat of violence.

What I hear Cruz and Bush saying is lets just use common sense. The Commander-in-Chief's first obligation is to protect the country; knowing the chaos that exists in the Middle East it will be more difficult to vet the Muslims today.

Vetting Christians will be much easier; they have fled as whole communities. They will know if a stranger is trying to game the system.

I would add the people in Syria and Iraq doing the vetting are Muslim; how do we know we can trust them?

Muslim scholars have confirmed that believers are permitted to lie to non believers if the lie advances the cause Islam. The Quran and Hadith are filled with examples.

I would recommend everyone learn about these two terms: taqiyya and kitman. I don't remember which is which: one means lying to a believer is OK if the purpose is to lessen tensions over a tense situation, the other means it is always OK to lie to non believers especially to learn their vulnerability to defeat them easier.

Christians are taught all lies are wrong.

(11-20-2015, 03:57 AM)pyropappy Wrote: I would add the people in Syria and Iraq doing the vetting are Muslim; how do we know we can trust them?

Seriously, just how freakin' paranoid are you?!

There is 1.5 billion Muslims on this planet. All radical groups, Boko Haram, Daesh, Shabab, Qaeda, Taliban, etc, put together make about 250.000 guys. Max!

That is 0.016%!!

What do you think with whom all the Western Embassies in all these areas work with together?! Are you the preacher of some church down south where they play with Rattlesnakes?

Here is something interesting actually.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-u...-magazine/

(11-20-2015, 03:57 AM)pyropappy Wrote: I would recommend everyone learn about these two terms: taqiyya and kitman. I don't remember which is which: one means lying to a believer is OK if the purpose is to lessen tensions over a tense situation, the other means it is always OK to lie to non believers especially to learn their vulnerability to defeat them easier.

Christians are taught all lies are wrong.

Why should we learn those terms? People lie, Pappy, they always have and they do it for a variety of reasons. I can't be certain about this but chances are I will go the rest of my life without ever encountering a terrorist. Like everyone else, I am appalled at what they do but my reality is that it will never really touch my life. They wouldn't get shit for my life. Out of everyone in Mock, Mo is probably the only one who truly knows about these people and I respect his opinions when he writes about them. He lives it.

(11-20-2015, 05:45 AM)Mohammed Wrote: Seriously, just how freakin' paranoid are you?!

There is 1.5 billion Muslims on this planet. All radical groups, Boko Haram, Daesh, Shabab, Qaeda, Taliban, etc, put together make about 250.000 guys. Max!

That is 0.016%!!

What do you think with whom all the Western Embassies in all these areas work with together?! Are you the preacher of some church down south where they play with Rattlesnakes?

Here is something interesting actually.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-u...-magazine/

Go back to cleaning your pools fat boy.

I just have one. Which is actually more than enough thinking about it, no?

So you do take part in that freakish Rattlesnake shit I saw on TV then. That's some weird stuff you folks over there get down too, let me tell you that much!

Anyway, here is a long write up about this whole refugee thing happening by somebody who knows. You see, I worked actually very closely with the US Embassy here and we are still nicely in touch with most of their foreign service folks. You know, people who know more about this than some mentally unfortunate Rattlesnake wrestling Bishop from the swamps.

This is from an American called Scott. He does not have some religious rattlesnake fetish!

Most of my friends know I practice Immigration law. As such, I have worked with the refugee community for over two decades. This post is long, but if you want actual information about the process, keep reading.

I can not tell you how frustrating it is to see the misinformation and outright lies that are being perpetuated about the refugee process and the Syrian refugees. So, here is a bit of information from the real world of someone who actually works and deals with this issue.

The refugee screening process is multi-layered and is very difficult to get through. Most people languish in temporary camps for months to years while their story is evaluated and checked.

First, you do not get to choose what country you might be resettled into. If you already have family (legal) in a country, that makes it more likely that you will go there to be with family, but other than that it is random. So, you can not simply walk into a refugee camp, show a document, and say, I want to go to America. Instead, the UNHCR (United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees) works with the local authorities to try to take care of basic needs. Once the person/family is registered to receive basic necessities, they can be processed for resettlement. Many people are not interested in resettlement as they hope to return to their country and are hoping that the turmoil they fled will be resolved soon. In fact, most refugees in refugee events never resettle to a third country. Those that do want to resettle have to go through an extensive process.

Resettlement in the U.S. is a long process and takes many steps. The Refugee Admissions Program is jointly administered by the Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration (PRM) in the Department of State, the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) in the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and offices within the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) within DHS conducts refugee interviews and determines individual eligibility for refugee status in the United States.

We evaluate refugees on a tiered system with three levels of priority.

First Priority are people who have suffered compelling persecution or for whom no other durable solution exists. These individuals are referred to the United States by UNHCR, or they are identified by the U.S. embassy or a non-governmental organization (NGO).

Second priority are groups of “special concern” to the United States. The Department of State determines these groups, with input from USCIS, UNHCR, and designated NGOs. At present, we prioritize certain persons from the former Soviet Union, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq, Iran, Burma, and Bhutan.

Third priority are relatives of refugees (parents, spouses, and unmarried children under 21) who are already settled in the United States may be admitted as refugees. The U.S.-based relative must file an Affidavit of Relationship (AOR) and must be processed by DHS.

Before being allowed to come to the United States, each refugee must undergo an extensive interviewing, screening, and security clearance process conducted by Regional Refugee Coordinators and overseas Resettlement Support Centers (RSCs). Individuals generally must not already be firmly resettled (a legal term of art that would be a separate article). Just because one falls into the three priorities above does not guarantee admission to the United States.

The Immigration laws require that the individuals prove that they have a “well-founded fear,” (another legal term which would be a book.) This fear must be proved regardless of the person’s country, circumstance, or classification in a priority category. There are multiple interviews and people are challenged on discrepancies. I had a client who was not telling the truth on her age and the agency challenged her on it. Refugees are not simply admitted because they have a well founded fear. They still must show that they are not subject to exclusion under Section 212(a) of the INA. These grounds include serious health matters, moral or criminal matters, as well as security issues. In addition, they can be excluded for such things as polygamy, misrepresentation of facts on visa applications, smuggling, or previous deportations. Under some circumstances, the person may be eligible to have the ground waived.

At this point, a refugee can be conditionally accepted for resettlement. Then, the RSC sends a request for assurance of placement to the United States, and the Refugee Processing Center (RPC) works with private voluntary agencies (VOLAG) to determine where the refugee will live. If the refugee does have family in the U.S., efforts will be made to resettle close to that family.

Every person accepted as a refugee for planned admission to the United States is conditional upon passing a medical examination and passing all security checks. Frankly, there is more screening of refugees than ever happens to get on an airplane. Of course, yes, no system can be 100% foolproof. But if that is your standard, then you better shut down the entire airline industry, close the borders, and stop all international commerce and shipping. Every one of those has been the source of entry of people and are much easier ways to gain access to the U.S. Only upon passing all of these checks (which involve basically every agency of the government involved in terrorist identification) can the person actually be approved to travel.

Before departing, refugees sign a promissory note to repay the United States for their travel costs. This travel loan is an interest-free loan that refugees begin to pay back six months after arriving in the country.

Once the VOLAG is notified of the travel plans, it must arrange for the reception of refugees at the airport and transportation to their housing at their final destination.
This process from start to finish averages 18 to 24 months, but I have seen it take years.

The reality is that about half of the refugees are children, another quarter are elderly. Almost all of the adults are either moms or couples coming with children. Each year the President, in consultation with Congress, determines the numerical ceiling for refugee admissions. For Fiscal Year (FY) 2016, the proposed ceiling is 85,000. We have been averaging about 70,000 a year for the last number of years. (Source: Refugee Processing Center)

Over one-third of all refugee arrivals (35.1 percent, or 24,579) in FY 2015 came from the Near East/South Asia—a region that includes Iraq, Iran, Bhutan, and Afghanistan.
Another third of all refugee arrivals (32.1 percent, or 22,472) in FY 2015 came from Africa.
Over a quarter of all refugee arrivals (26.4 percent, or 18,469) in FY 2015 came from East Asia — a region that includes China, Vietnam, and Indonesia. (Source: Refugee Processing Center)

Finally, the process in Europe is different. I would be much more concerned that terrorists are infiltrating the European system because they are not nearly so extensive and thorough in their process.

Mo, I appreciate you sharing the knowledge you've gained through years of living in the Muslim world.

To me, however, having our government 'slip up' just a bit, by not thoroughly vetting these particular refugees could mean hundreds or thousands of Americans die needlessly.

I think most Americans care about that.

My wife and I actually spoke about this just this morning. We are in agreement that we should welcome true refugees with open arms.

As Pappy said though, it just needs to be done in an intelligent manner.

(11-19-2015, 11:18 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote:

(11-19-2015, 11:41 AM)Midwest Spy Wrote: Doesn't make me more moral or peaceful.

This is a serious question, not a jabbing one.

Ted Cruz and Jeb Bush, both of whom claim to be devout Christians, are suggesting that the U.S. should not be considering Syrian Muslims for possible refugee relocation. HOWEVER, they suggest that the U.S. should open its doors to Syrian Christians.

Do you agree with that MS?

I'm not a Christian. But, to me, it seems so very contrary to the Christian philosophies of helping the needy and "loving they neighbor".

Great question HotD.

Jesus would say welcome anyone. And no, he didn't whisper that to me.

However, you don't just welcome the wolf into the hen house either. Our government just needs to be as thorough as possible. I'd love to see women and children taken care of immediately.

Take our time with the men, but in the end, a true refugee we should welcome, regardless of their faith.

(11-20-2015, 07:10 AM)Duchess Wrote: Out of everyone in Mock, Mo is probably the only one who truly knows about these people and I respect his opinions when he writes about them. He lives it.

I like reading Mo's experiences, observations, and opinions a lot too. For me, the more he posts, the better.

While I agree with plenty of his points, I don't agree with all of his opinions in regards to terrorism, religion, global politics and conflicts, etc... And, I think it's a good thing that I, nor anyone here, need be hesitant to express a counter view even if we've never lived as foreigners in a terrorist-occupied area.

Likewise, even though Mo's never lived in the United States (or Syria or Iraq or Saudi Arabia or Iran...), I view his opinions on those topics -- opinions based on reading/watching news, interactions with embassy workers/friends from those countries, and internet posts by residents of those countries -- as worthy of consideration as everyone else's, including those who've actually lived it.

(11-20-2015, 11:56 AM)Midwest Spy Wrote: Jesus would say welcome anyone. And no, he didn't whisper that to me.

However, you don't just welcome the wolf into the hen house either. Our government just needs to be as thorough as possible. I'd love to see women and children taken care of immediately.

Take our time with the men, but in the end, a true refugee we should welcome, regardless of their faith.

Thanks for answering MS.

(11-20-2015, 11:47 AM)Midwest Spy Wrote: Mo, I appreciate you sharing the knowledge you've gained through years of living in the Muslim world.

To me, however, having our government 'slip up' just a bit, by not thoroughly vetting these particular refugees could mean hundreds or thousands of Americans die needlessly.

I think most Americans care about that.

My wife and I actually spoke about this just this morning. We are in agreement that we should welcome true refugees with open arms.

As Pappy said though, it just needs to be done in an intelligent manner.

After ⁹⁄₁₁ it is the US that is doing it in the most intelligent and thorough manner possible.

A Norwegian friend working with the UN and holding both a Norwegian as well as UN Passport was held in New York at the airport for 4 hours because of her Yemeni visas.

At this stage an American should be more worried about going to the movies or those school shootings that seem to be a true American tradition slowly, than being attacked by some wild Jihadist. And I think it such would happen in the States now, it would be a highly PR target like Time Square, White House, etc. Not just shooting some random Americans. Americans do that on a daily basis all by themselves anyway.

Hot D, did I make you think I didn't respect the opinions of others when I commented about Mo? If so, that wasn't my intent. I know I sometimes don't convey what I mean in a clear manner. I wasn't dissing your opinion nor anyone else.